Common Courteousy PLEASE!!!!!

Anglacon · Post by **Anglacon** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:36 pm

Yeah, I had a deal going with another trader. We agreed on a price, we agreed I will pay 1/2 up front, and he would ship, then I would pay the other 1/2 (my feedback was higher). This occured over 3-4 days, if I remember correctly.

we exchanged info, and I asked him for his paypal address.
nada.
a few days later, with me pm'ing him, he comes back with "Someone offered me something better".

I was ticked of course, but is this grounds for a negative feedback?

GearHead · Post by **GearHead** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:39 am

No, particularly because nothing had actually changed hands.

Still, I think a "Flaky Trader" board might be in order...

peacemystic · Post by **peacemystic** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:47 am

Anglacon wrote:Yeah, I had a deal going with another trader. We agreed on a price, we agreed I will pay 1/2 up front, and he would ship, then I would pay the other 1/2 (my feedback was higher). This occured over 3-4 days, if I remember correctly.

we exchanged info, and I asked him for his paypal address.
nada.
a few days later, with me pm'ing him, he comes back with "Someone offered me something better".

I was ticked of course, but is this grounds for a negative feedback?

From what Lin has said,id say thats grounds for neutral or bad feedback as the deal was made,and broken for no good reason.

Cheers
Peace

( 196 ) · Post by **oaflord** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:21 am

This is quickly becoming very subjective...

Maybe an arbitration board?? Is that too much to ask?

peacemystic · Post by **peacemystic** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:42 am

Linrandir wrote:

It is not considered fraud per se but it is grounds to leave neutral or negative feedback.

So, everyone, if you're going to agree to something remember that you are obligated to comply!!
Do note that extenuating circumstances apply on an individual basis and it's really up to the person you're breaking the deal with to consider them when they leave feedback.

I don't think its subjective at all,as it says above once you have agreed to something you are obligated to comply,unless there is a good reason,I got a better deal is not a good reason,it means your word is worth nothing,and other people should know if your willing to break your word.
so easily.

Now something like a family member in hospital or whatever is a whole different story

Cheers
Peace

( 108 ) · Post by **Linrandir** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:23 am

All righty, here we go.

Order of operations, with examples.

1. Contact the potential trade partner. (Morlock decides he wants WHFB Dark Elves and doesn't want his Cryx; he knows that I want Cryx and want to get rid of my Dark Elves. MB contacts me.)

2. Negotiate the Terms of the Trade. (MB: "Blah blah Cryx blah Dark Elves blah retail for retail." Lin: "Blah Dark Elves blah blah Cryx, shipping terms XYZ.")

3. Agree on the Terms of the Trade. (MB: "Cool?" Lin: "Cool.")
**Once the agreement is made, you're reputation-bound to carry through! This is where, if the other guy backs out, vanishes, gets stabbed by the Pants, or otherwise welches on the deal, you can leave neutral or negative feedback! That includes "Sorry dude I got a better offer Cya!"

4. Execute the Terms of the Trade as agreed upon! (MB sends his stuff, Lin sends his, everyone's happy.)
**This is where trading reputations are made and broken. If you're true to your word, that will get around and you will gain a good reputation here. If you're a dick, that'll get around too and no one will touch you with a ten meter cattle-prod (except the Pants, he digs that stuff).

5. LEAVE FEEDBACK!! (MB and Lin leave each other Positive feedback, yay)
You are not doing anyone any favors by NOT posting feedback. You all know I am a bloody fracking tyrant when it comes to nuking people who leave retaliatory feedback; I won't have that kind of intimidation.
Feedback is a useful learning tool for the novice trader and a great scam-buster, not to mention a good yardstick to measure someone's trustworthiness. Just think what would've happened if all those people who got burned by Ticknor hadn't bothered to leave feedback.

___________---------------------_____________________

Okay, so what does this mean for Bartertown feedback?
Use your own best judgment. I will be happy to adjudicate disputes, but the guidelines are here so you don't need to involve me unless you feel it necessary.

If you've agreed to terms and the other guy backs out, it's up to you if the circumstances warrant something nasty. If he gets a better deal from someone else after he's agreed to something with you, that is breaking a deal. On the other hand, if there's some kind of emergency it's up to you to decide how you want to record the transaction.

NEUTRAL FEEDBACK IS NOT BAD. It ain't good either, it just is. It'll still raise your score by +1. It documents that a transaction occurred, and what the results were. You can choose to leave it, or not.
--------------------------------------------------

That said, Anglacon? If I had a deal with someone like that and they pulled that on me? I'd give them a strongly worded neutral unless money changed hands, then I'd whip that negative at him so fast his head would spin.
Moral of the story? If you make a deal, honor the deal. If you want, you can always inform the other party "This is provisional because I might get something better." It's not nice, and your trade reputation might suffer for it, but it's better than yanking them around like what happened to Anglacon.

( 108 ) · Post by **Linrandir** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:32 pm

Per request from Porkuslime:

Regarding your situation where the trader dropped off the face of the planet and then a month later asked if you received the items: If he doesn't give you some kind of confirmation of shipping, and you never get anything, he can't give you negative feedback. Hell, I'd question a neutral since, by your account, he has very bad and sporadic communication.

If anything, he's the one who isn't keeping up his end of the deal. That particular door swings both ways. Remember, a purchase is still considered a deal here.

starslayer · Post by **starslayer** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:37 pm

I'm going to against the crowd here.
I think its a VERY BAD IDEA!
Why?
You Mods are going to get ALOT of extra work. There will be dozens of cases of he said/she said/blah/blah.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying,but I think it will be very hard to implement.You are probably going to have to arbitrate literally dozens of cases. Sifting throuh emails,etc,etc.

If nothing is actually sent,repost the item, or go to the next potential buyer on your list.
Yes,it stinks. But why leave a neutral ref? That actually ADDS ONE to their ref score!! So their refs increase for breaking a "deal"!
If you leave a negative,then that opens up a new set of problems.

I can think of at least a dozen "bad/broken deals" myself. Sure I got angry, but I moved on. If need be, start your own personal "do not trade with" list.

I think the easiest/best route is to just move on.

( 60 ) · Post by **NuWishA** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:21 pm

That guy who is coming back weeks later asking for money orders and "did you get the models" sounds like he is fishing for you to send him a money order.

( 3094 ) · Post by **porkuslime** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:38 pm

[quote="NuWishA"]That guy who is coming back weeks later asking for money orders and "did you get the models" sounds like he is fishing for you to send him a money order.[/quote]

that is sorta my thinking on this.. I have been kinda leery on this for a while.. plus the wide variation on trade rating.. me being kinda high, and him being less than 10..

-Porkuslime

( 196 ) · Post by **oaflord** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:18 am

That's a lot clearer Lin, thank you. Although, subject to Number 4... one may want to be cattled prodded by the Pants... not me though, at least not today...

( 108 ) · Post by **Linrandir** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:04 pm

@ Starslayer:

I agree, the potential is there to make a lot more work for us. On the other hand, we are trying to cover all the bases so everyone gets "equal protection under the law," as it were.

I guess I'm trying to make everyone aware of their options, not say "Do This!". I suspect most people will just move on, unless they're so angry about the deal getting nuked they choose to do something about it.

ancientsociety · Post by **ancientsociety** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:16 pm

@starslayer: I heartily agree. This WILL lead to a LOT of "he said, he said" arguments (I use he just because I've never encountered a female trader here...). This ruling is VERY subjective and VERY open to abuse.

@Lin: Sorry, all-powerful one, but I have to disagree with your statement:

"I guess I'm trying to make everyone aware of their options, not say "Do This!". I suspect most people will just move on..."

By making a "followthru" part of the rules, you ARE saying "Do This (or else)!". Those of us who have been around long enough HAVE seen how petty/immature/rude some traders can get when they don't get their way.

I agree that once goods and/or money have been rec'd by EITHER party, that the trade MUST be honored (so long as the terms are followed). HOWEVER, if nothing has changed hands, then no one is out anything and hence there are no grounds for negative (or neutral) feedback. There have been plenty of times in my trading here that I've come to a "yes, that's a deal" and then one of us has decided either not to pursue the trade or back out of it. As I'm not out anything (and neither were the repective BTers), I refuse to leave any feedback because A) a transaction has not occured, B) I'm not out anything, and C) I'd rather keep them in good graces for future trading.

For example, I've been awaiting an MO from a trader for an item for about 2 weeks now. I haven't rec'd it and I'm starting to doubt if I will. Are you saying that if someone came to me tomorrow and said "I have the cash to buy that item right now", if I sold it to that person (after being very patient and waiting for the initial trader's MO), that I'm now liable for a bad ref? That's crazy and frankly the initial trader could leave me a bad ref 2 weeks, 2 months, or 2 years after the fact (as there's no statute of limitations...).

What if you agree to a trade and an act of god (tornado, fire, theft, etc.) destroys your half - are you still liable for a bad ref? What if you pull out of a deal because you suspect the other trader might be a scam artist?

( 108 ) · Post by **Linrandir** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:39 pm

There's no sin in disagreeing with me, and I'm certainly not all-powerful.

In reading over everything, I'm seeing a grey area between the Bartertown rules and the Bad Trader Forum guidelines. This discussion is really highlighting that difference.

We haven't wanted to make feedback mandatory because then we'd be swamped under in complaints of "they never left me feedback!" and so forth. What I've tried to do here is illustrate our feedback guidelines - what warrants a neutral, what warrants a negative, and so on.

Let me try explaining how I'm seeing this in another way:

IF you enter into a trade agreement with someone,
THEN you are obligated to follow through.
IF you do NOT follow through,
THEN you can expect appropriate feedback.
**HOWEVER!! No one is under an obligation to leave feedback. They may do so if they choose, but if challenged it will need to be defended. I will amend things accordingly when I have some time later today.**

IF someone you have entered into an agreement with has NOT followed through,
THEN you can use the guidelines in the bad trader forum to help you decide what to do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I also appreciate people's concerns for the moderators in sorting through emails, note that we require people to present evidence to us in an understandable way. It's treated like a bad trader report, since that's more or less what it is. We've dismissed a few for lack of evidence, too, and while that can let a scammer go uncaught, it can also prevent people being unfairly maligned.

Anyway, I hope that made sense. These discussions are quite useful in helping me tighten up the rules, the guidelines, and generally make BT a better place for the community.

ancientsociety · Post by **ancientsociety** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:12 pm

Lin: "There's no sin in disagreeing with me, and I'm certainly not all-powerful."

Consider it a form of flattery. And now unto poking the sleeping dragon...

If I'm catching your drift, traders basically have to followthru with any transaction, for fear of a neutral or bad ref, no matter any wait, hassle, better deal, and/or extentuating circumstances. The only way where you are not subject to this is if the other trader failed to live up to their end of the barter.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how this rule will "protect" anyone's interests, as no goods/money has been exchanged. It is one thing to protect the interests of those who have actually lost a physical thing (cash, items, etc.) but wholly another if someone has only lost some of their time. If I sound like a broken record by repeating the nonexchange of goods it is because that is central to my issue with this rule. If we open feedback to include such subjective and arbitrary feelings as frustration/lost time/impatience/etc., where does that end?

Should one be able to leave neutral feedback if another trader doesn't want to trade? Perhaps that seems far-fetched, but in this case (as with the "new" rule) there has also been a nonexchange and the trader is out their time. Perhaps I get ahead of myself by using this example but the "new" rule involves so much grey area that I feel this issue will come up in the future.

IMHO, feedback should ONLY be used if an exchange of goods, money, or services has taken place. Period - no more, no less. There is no example in the "Post A Ref" good/neutral/bad examples for "he cancelled a deal". If a good exchange takes place - leave a good ref. If the exchange does not live up to terms- leave a neutral. If the exchange is stolen/broken/etc. - leave a bad ref. That's all fairly cut-and-dry. Bad refs should ONLY be left if the other trader rips you off in some way. One bad ref can ruin the reputation of ANY trader, new or old, and should NOT be used lightly. Bad refs IMO should NOT be used simply because someone decides not to "honor" a deal made on the intertubes (again, so long as there has been no exchange).

The problem occurs when we start telling traders, "Well, if Trader A broke the deal (without anything being exchanged), just leave him neutral or bad feedback.". And what's the conditions for either a neutral or bad ref?

What if Trader A receives the item and sends it back and calls off the deal right away (perhaps because he got a better deal, could not afford it, didn't like the condition, etc.)?

I can see this leading to a LOT of bad blood and an increase in DNT lists for members.