BTR: Tomb King1

[Ollieb]

All I kep seeing is you shorted him 2 backpacks and sent one incorrect mini. Aside from pity what else are you looking for here? Send him the backpacks and the last mini or the Flamers and reimbursement for shipping and call it a day.

Just out of curiosity here when you negotiated the trade for the flamers did you ask if the wings were included? I didn't see any record of that PM or, as common sense would dictate, did you believe them to be complete since the OP did not list any of the parts as missing?

[jul]

invert the situation, will you be disappointed if you received 7 flamers and pink horror with 2 flamers missing one arm for your kasrkins.... or if he sent you space marine pewter flamers, he never mentioned they were deamons models....

and then there is this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:12 am
by ‪Tomb King1
Only really interested in the 8 flamers. I have a full kaskrin squad if you are interested in that. They also have a grenade launcher and a plasma gunner.. Let me know if you would trade
10 kaskrin pewter w/ sgt, plasma gunner, and grenade launcher

for your 8 pewter flamers

specially that line: "I have a full kaskrin squad if you are interested in that. They also have a grenade launcher and a plasma gunner..
a full squad as defined by the GW website:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
they all have their backpacks, i can also refer to the 2006 complete catalogue as well as the imperial guard collector guide that list all the parts included in a full squad: back packs are noted as being as part of the squad.

it doesn't feel like everything has been handled in good faith from both parts, maybe it's time to stop kidding around and try to find a solution...
if nobody wants to, it's a different story...

J.

[Tomb King1]

invert the situation, will you be disappointed if you received 7 flamers and pink horror with 2 flamers missing one arm for your kasrkins.... or if he sent you space marine pewter flamers, he never mentioned they were deamons models....

and then there is this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:12 am
by ‪Tomb King1
Only really interested in the 8 flamers. I have a full kaskrin squad if you are interested in that. They also have a grenade launcher and a plasma gunner.. Let me know if you would trade
10 kaskrin pewter w/ sgt, plasma gunner, and grenade launcher

for your 8 pewter flamers

specially that line: "I have a full kaskrin squad if you are interested in that. They also have a grenade launcher and a plasma gunner..
a full squad as defined by the GW website:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
they all have their backpacks, i can also refer to the 2006 complete catalogue as well as the imperial guard collector guide that list all the parts included in a full squad: back packs are noted as being as part of the squad.

it doesn't feel like everything has been handled in good faith from both parts, maybe it's time to stop kidding around and try to find a solution...
if nobody wants to, it's a different story...

J.

A full squad as defined by the codex is 10 models. I just received a flamer from another trader that was missing an arm. I kit bash or use bits to fix minor things.

All I kep seeing is you shorted him 2 backpacks and sent one incorrect mini. Aside from pity what else are you looking for here? Send him the backpacks and the last mini or the Flamers and reimbursement for shipping and call it a day.

Just out of curiosity here when you negotiated the trade for the flamers did you ask if the wings were included? I didn't see any record of that PM or, as common sense would dictate, did you believe them to be complete since the OP did not list any of the parts as missing?

That he was not the DnD he played off to be and that he actually deserved his negative feedback just as much as I did. I deserved mine for negligence and he deserved his for his overall demeanor and the way he handled the situations.

I have yet to see the models that are in question. Until I do we can talk all day and nothing will happen. He has not shown me what models I messed up with. (i.e. to draw a picture for you in particular jul) I would like too see proof of models that are deficient before just saying well here you go you said you got 7 I shipped 10 but I guess I will take your word for it.

[jul]

why should he sent you a picture when you already agreed it was missing backpacks....

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:55 pm
by ‪Tomb King1
My apologies I thought they all had back packs. Oh some didnt come with back packs. Sorry about that. No I have no spare back packs.

[Tomb King1]

Also clearly this:

- Post the COMPLETE PMs. Simply stating what was in them, omitting anything (aside from YOUR contact information), or not posting one because you felt it was “unnecessary” causes headaches and can be considered a posting violation if you accidentally forget to include certain information… Especially information that reflects poorly on you. The only “unnecessary” PMs are those that contain ABSOLUTELY NO information about the trade at hand. If there is even the SLIGHTEST mention of the trade, then post the entire PM for the sake of completeness.

Was violated.

Has Linrandir answered your pm? He's not on as much as the rest of the staff.

No he never did but mere minutes after I sent that message to him PhillyT ignored it and proceeded with the bad trader report.

[Tomb King1]

why should he sent you a picture when you already agreed it was missing backpacks....

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:55 pm
by ‪Tomb King1
My apologies I thought they all had back packs. Oh some didnt come with back packs. Sorry about that. No I have no spare back packs.

That is not an admission of guilt that is a poorly worded sentence stating the situation. Put a question mark after back packs like so (?).

[jul]

Tomb King 1 you won, you are the best:

here is a summary of your violations:

Rule #1: PLAY FAIR.
We all learned this rule in Kindergarten. Don't cheat, tell the whole truth, help out "around the house," be nice to others, be responsible for what you do, follow the rules, and treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. Everything else from here on down is either administrivia or specific examples of how to PLAY FAIR. The adult version of this rule sounds like this: Don't Be A D*ck.

Rule 4a: You are also responsible for accurately describing all items that you are trading or selling.
That includes version, condition, assembly status, converted or not, painted or not, any missing pieces and any other information you think might be helpful. Failure to do so may result in the other party filing a Backout Trader or Bad Trader report against you.

Rule #7: Be Polite (So important, we said it twice!)
Abusive or inappropriate language towards any other Bartertown user is not acceptable - doubly so when directed at a Staff member who notifies you of a rule violation. We reserve the right to escalate the consequence you've earned if you decide to vent at us. The definition of "abusive or inappropriate language" starts by applying Rule #1. Do note that Bartertown Staff members have the right to determine what qualifies as abusive or inappropriate at their discretion.

Rule #11: ITL or Reference intimidation
ITL (AKA Reference) intimidation is a first-offense ban.

What qualifies as ITL intimidation?
In its most direct form, ITL intimidation is when someone says something like "If you give me a bad trader report, I'm gonna give you one."
Anything that is not so direct, like "If you don't give me a good trade report, you'll regret it" also may qualify. Note that giving someone retaliatory feedback qualifies as well. No free hits.
If you are not sure, please contact either myself or one of the moderators. The equivalent level of evidence required for filing a bad trade report is necessary: emails with headers, PMs, and so forth.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO LEAVE FEEDBACK. If you don't, you can't really complain when someone says "this guy's a jerk - he never left me any feedback!" Should you just forget and someone leaves you what you consider to be an unjust reference, please see the 30-day feedback appeal rule below. I would consider leaving an appropriate feedback for them in exchange for having your own feedback edited acceptable and not 'intimidation' per se. Everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone is abundantly patient.

[Tomb King1]

Tomb King 1 you won, you are the best:

here is a summary of your violations:

Rule #1: PLAY FAIR.
We all learned this rule in Kindergarten. Don't cheat, tell the whole truth, help out "around the house," be nice to others, be responsible for what you do, follow the rules, and treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. Everything else from here on down is either administrivia or specific examples of how to PLAY FAIR. The adult version of this rule sounds like this: Don't Be A D*ck.

Rule 4a: You are also responsible for accurately describing all items that you are trading or selling.
That includes version, condition, assembly status, converted or not, painted or not, any missing pieces and any other information you think might be helpful. Failure to do so may result in the other party filing a Backout Trader or Bad Trader report against you.

Rule #7: Be Polite (So important, we said it twice!)
Abusive or inappropriate language towards any other Bartertown user is not acceptable - doubly so when directed at a Staff member who notifies you of a rule violation. We reserve the right to escalate the consequence you've earned if you decide to vent at us. The definition of "abusive or inappropriate language" starts by applying Rule #1. Do note that Bartertown Staff members have the right to determine what qualifies as abusive or inappropriate at their discretion.

Rule #11: ITL or Reference intimidation
ITL (AKA Reference) intimidation is a first-offense ban.

What qualifies as ITL intimidation?
In its most direct form, ITL intimidation is when someone says something like "If you give me a bad trader report, I'm gonna give you one."
Anything that is not so direct, like "If you don't give me a good trade report, you'll regret it" also may qualify. Note that giving someone retaliatory feedback qualifies as well. No free hits.
If you are not sure, please contact either myself or one of the moderators. The equivalent level of evidence required for filing a bad trade report is necessary: emails with headers, PMs, and so forth.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO LEAVE FEEDBACK. If you don't, you can't really complain when someone says "this guy's a jerk - he never left me any feedback!" Should you just forget and someone leaves you what you consider to be an unjust reference, please see the 30-day feedback appeal rule below. I would consider leaving an appropriate feedback for them in exchange for having your own feedback edited acceptable and not 'intimidation' per se. Everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone is abundantly patient.

*sigh*

From the top:

ITL or Reference intimidation (He was guilty of this too an extent. I made no such threat.)

Rule #1: PLAY FAIR.
Rule #7: Be Polite (So important, we said it twice!) (Are you serious? Your seriously saying I committed this and not him?)

Rule 4a: You are also responsible for accurately describing all items that you are trading or selling. (My intent was to send 10 complete kaskrins. To this time I still believe I have sent 9 complete. The one cadian I think I know which one he is refering too looked a little weird I thought I was being generous throwing in a model with extra gear (he had a vox) but was in fact doing the opposite. So I admit making that mistake. Thought it was a kaskrin.)

[PhillyT]

First, I was in the process of sending the bad trader report and sent it before seeing your response. To be honest, at that point I still would have sent negative feedback. Multiple times you basically said that you felt the deal was done, and when you then stated that you never said all of the backpacks were there I felt we had exhausted what could be dealt with between the two of us. Discovering the Cadian only further irritated me.

I had also sent a PM to Magickalmemories asking what he felt I should do. When he responded, he said discussing things on the BTR board was an appropriate action.

As far as your statement concerning not providing evidence, what evidence can I provide? What will photos do? If I was as dishonest as you claim, I could just break backpacks off and claim they came that way. If you want pictures of the two special weapon troopers without their backpacks I can certainly post them here, but it doesn't serve much of a purpose. This is a case of he said/he said, with only our PM's to show some track record. The track record is:

1. I discovered the missing components.
2. I PMed you telling you that two packs were missing and asking if you had replacements.
3. You PMed back that they never had back packs and that you had no spares.
4. I said I had a problem with that since I needed the back packs and wanted to know what you might do to take care of it. I then started hunting around on ebay to find out the cost. Back packs were running about $2 each, with $2 shipping when they were available at all. I waited 42 minutes, during which you were listed as online, waiting for a response or some options from you. I sent you the message that paypaling $6 might be the easiest way to take care of the missing packs and to cover the hassle of replacement. I then wanted to clarify that I was still comfortable giving positive feedback if that was taken care of.
5. You responded that you would pass, figuring that the models were nearly that cost (and you ignored shipping on your estimate by the way). You PMed about a half hour later that you had two others with backpacks, then immediately PMed again saying you would rather not conduct the trade (which was a little late in the game) and would take your models back. What you failed to recognize is that it would put me out $14 in shipping for something completely not my fault. That isn't "working" with a trading partner.
6. I asked why you wouldn't just send the backpacks since sending the kasrkins without backpacks to you so you could send kasrkins with backpacks glued on them didn't make much sense. I also asked why you didn't send me the models with back packs rather than those without.
7. At this point I gave you a few options as far as I could see them, since you weren't offering much back in the way of decent choices (me taking a bad trade or eating $12-$14 in shipping for nothing). The one point I guess came across wrong was when I said you would get a good reference. What I was saying was that I would still give good feedback, despite at that point you not deserving much other than neutral. If it came off as black mail, my apologies.
8. Your response was to threaten negative feedback in return (nonsense given that you had exactly what you asked for). To this point you still hadn't said anything about having sent 10 backpacks, which we now know is impossible anyway given that you only sent 9 kasrkin and a cadian vox caster, you were still operating under your initial story that you knew some were incomplete but you wanted to send me the "best" kasrkin you had.
9. You then continued to show that you KNEW you hadn't sent 10 back packs when you pulled your "get technical" PM about never claiming that they all had back packs, implying it was my fault for not asking.
10. I told you I was PMing an admin and that you should keep your messages for the BTR. You then stated that you were being blackmailed over $6. You then stated that you checked the models twice, which is again impossible because one of them wasn't even a kasrkin.
11. I called you on the fact that you admitted the models weren't complete at the start of our conversation. Changing your story after having a record through PM isn't a strong tactic in these sorts of issues.
12. When looking over the complete models, I discovered the Cadian with the vox caster and became quite irritated. Not only had you not sent two back packs, one of the 8 models I thought were complete turned out to not even be a kasrkin.
13. You continued to ignore me concerning the Cadian.
14. I decided that interacting with just you would solve nothing since you kept trying to blow me off with comments like "Good day sir!" I issued negative feedback, knowing you would do the same, and prepared this BTR knowing full well that the truth was pretty apparent looking at the PM logs.

I will admit, your complete lack of concern over not sending the two back packs and then offering no options to take care of the issue bother me quite a lot, as did the fact that you were online and weren't bothering to respond to my messages in a timely fashion. That your go to move was then to offer to send the models back without offering to pay my shipping for your mistake struck me as a non-option.

In several places you have proven yourself shifty, unreliable, inconsistent, and confrontational. That you are unwilling to accept any blame is ridiculous and the fact that I am the one who has to lose out to expose you as a bad trader is fine by me given that what you are screwing me out of is fairly minor. It is better that it happen here than if you did it to someone else.

After buying and selling over $500 worth of models on here in the last 2 weeks, the idea that I am hustling you out of $6 is absurd.

And as far as I can tell, I didn't omit any PM, though I did remove the quotes of previous posts that you kept having in your PMs. You have the same PM's as me, why don't you take the time to cobble them together?

[PhillyT]

And a full kasrkin squad would have included a flamer. You subbed a plasma gunner instead. You weren't doing a favor, the two models cost the same.

[MagickalMemories]

Jesus, Christ.
This is petty, pathetic, and I've lost all semblance of patience for it at this point.

FIRST - I'm requesting that Mods and Watchmen stop posting here. The thread's getting nowhere.
Second - I'm also stating that no members but PhillyT and Tomb King1 post in this thread again. As above... getting nowhere.

Third:

Also clearly this:

- Post the COMPLETE PMs. Simply stating what was in them, omitting anything (aside from YOUR contact information), or not posting one because you felt it was “unnecessary” causes headaches and can be considered a posting violation if you accidentally forget to include certain information… Especially information that reflects poorly on you. The only “unnecessary” PMs are those that contain ABSOLUTELY NO information about the trade at hand. If there is even the SLIGHTEST mention of the trade, then post the entire PM for the sake of completeness.

Was violated.

Has Linrandir answered your pm? He's not on as much as the rest of the staff.

No he never did but mere minutes after I sent that message to him PhillyT ignored it and proceeded with the bad trader report.

In what manner?
And if you're thinking that it was because he didn't mention that you told him you'd messaged a staff member... forget it. We need the details from the trade, and that was after the trade. While it may have been something we'd have wanted to see at a later time, it was not required for BTR posting purposes.

Fourth:

I offered 10 kaskrin for 8 flamers. That was the premise of the deal. Not 10 kaskrin and 10 backpacks for them.

Sorry. That's not how we roll here. A backpack is an integral part of the model when it is sold retail. As such, it is presumed for our purposes to be included in any trade for said model, unless specified otherwise in advance. There is no "rules lawyering" that one.

Fifth:
If you're truly studying Criminal Justice, you should learn the difference between "mute" and "moot."

Sixth, and finally:
Yes or No (no other answer -even a conditional one- is acceptable to me, and will be treated as a "No); do you intend to make good on what Bartertown Staff deems as your complete end of the trade and [a] mail PhillyT the missing backpacks & complete Kasrkin model (including any backpack that may have come with the model when purchased retail) in the condition you initially promised or provide him with a reasonable cash compensation for the missing parts ("reasonable" to be defined by myself, Porkuslime and a third -yet undecided- staff member, but not to exceed full retail value), while providing the shipping cost to have the Cadian model mailed back to you, should you desire its' return?

If your answer is affirmative, please indicate which option, [a] or , you will be undertaking.
If your answer is negative, please see the following:

Should you choose "No" for the question above, which is your choice from the two options below?
1) "I intend not to do anything else with this trade. I will keep what was sent to me and PhillyT can keep what I sent him. I will not be providing further cash or material goods to him."
OR
2) "I will reverse the trade. I will return PhillyT's models, paying the shipping costs myself, in the condition they were received. I will take steps to ensure that nothing awry happens to them on their return trip, including the purchase of a Delivery Confirmation number. Additionally, I will pay (in advance) the full shipping costs to have my Kasrkin and Cadian models returned to me. This will include a Delivery Confirmation number. If PhillyT wants them insured, that cost will be his to bear."

Tomb King1, you should note that there is no third option here. A direct response is expected. Any attempt to offer a third option or obfuscate my intent (per my interpretation, which is a literal reading of my statement) will result in my presumption that your answer is #1, and I will react accordingly.

I'm done playing and I'm done placating. Figure it out, man.

Eric

[PhillyT]

I am going to assume that Brett is done with this trade. I have heard nothing from him and he hasn't posted here. That is enough of an answer for me.

I'll do the best I can with what was sent and never trade with the likes of him again. I suggest others follow suit.