just a thought about GW

[whatsnext]

I read around in the different forums and the overall impression is alot of people are not buying models like they used to. You know like in the good ol days when prices for energy were stable.

So you can pretty much assume that a price increase for GW stuff is coming. Next year would be my guess for an increase.

But if it came to that and GW had to really think about how another price increase could really screw the pooch -IE backfire and cause loss instead to stability, what if they decided to stop making rules but keep making models?

Would you still play/buy?

DDM lost company backing and half the people playing jumped ship without looking back, but figures and offical rules were still made until the Dungeons and Dragons mini line was killed recently.
Wizards dropped DDM and most plays left at the announcement, so do you think warhammer would survive?

Fantasy would proably go first if anything.

I dont think GW will go bankrupt and maybe prices will stay stable
Specialist games now eats dirt, so something could happen.

I myself have not bought anything GW since the day before the last increase. Moved back to other games I like.

[HarlequinZero]

GW price increases are not a "when" or "if" thing. They are scheduled every year for June.

[HarlequinZero]

Oh, and even PP has been getting crazy lately. $100 for the Destor cavalry? $85 for the Khador war engine? I've been looking more and more at cutting back to a single army in Warmahordes as well as 40K and Fantasy. Then turning my gaming funds over to Infinity and MERCS almost exclusively.

[Agent-X]

The question I have always in my head, is it better for them to keep raising prices and 'subsidizing' the GW game stores which are possibly losing money, or to shut down the majority of their game stores and possibly lower prices to drive more sales??

Do the stores recruit enough new players to make them beneficial? Do games like Dawn of War and the upcoming 40k MMO allow for GW to have more recognition and thus drive more people to the hobby who might not have done so before?

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

Do the stores recruit enough new players to make them beneficial? Do games like Dawn of War and the upcoming 40k MMO allow for GW to have more recognition and thus drive more people to the hobby who might not have done so before?

If you look at GW's 20 year sales history, and cross referenced it with the expansion of their retail stores, I think you would find that there is a close relationship. Given that GW does not advertise outside of their own channels, they need to use those retail stores to drive sales.

[aurak_merc]

If GW stopped making rulesets, I would probably keep collecting the models since I don't currently play anyhow. I only purchase second-hand or from online dealers with deep discounts (I don't go to the LGS more than a couple times a year nowadays).

I really don't get the GW strategy at all. They frequently raise prices, support games that few seem to play (LoTR), and barely recognize the games that actually have a following (Bloodbowl, BFG). The horrid catalog that they try to sell for $10 a month is just crap. Pure crap. Half a magazine of more LoTR stuff, an article on the new hot army that smashes some IG list, and a bunch of ads. For $5 I might pick one up every so often to oogle the nice paintjobs. For $10 there had better be either some top-notch articles with excellent photos, or some dirty jokes and pictures of boobies. None of which I have seen in a White Dwarf.

As for the GW stores, I don't think there is one within a neighboring state for me to go to even if I wanted. From what I have read though, the salesmen are incredibly pushy which is a huge turnoff. Seeing a larger amount of 40k stock in one place would be kind of neat I suppose, but I would never buy there since it is full retail.

[reegsk]

It's a really tough situation. So many places offer discounts now (online retailers and even some LGS's) that it's difficult to get someone to come into your store and buy everything at full retail. The GW business model really relies on getting new people into the hobby. Getting some fourteen year-old to come in with his buddy, buy an AoBR and some paint, then a Space Marine and Ork army and never come back is a lot easier than getting us plastic crack addicts who buy army after army. Going with that business model, it is not only desirable but necessary to get your stores in high-traffic areas, i.e. malls and shopping centers. The problem with this scenario is that malls are SO FRIGGIN' EXPENSIVE!!! I used to work at a GW store in Holyoke, Massachusetts. I can't remember the exact figures, but our tiny little closet rang in at $30+ per square foot, per month. That's not including security and maintenance fees, employee pay, shipping costs, etc. Now, we easily pulled our weight and then some during the summer, when those target consumers were running rampant, and during the Holiday Season, when everybody is buying everything. But the in-between times, September through October/November and January through May, we were hemorrhaging money.

I think part of the problem is that GW still relies on this business model, although it's burned them pretty badly. They've closed a LOT of their mall locations (all five stores in Massachusetts/Connecticut closed, four were in malls). They've focused on adding new stores in profitable areas to increase sales. But they've rigidly adhered themselves to this model, and I don't think they'll ever abandon it. If some cataclysmic financial event happened that hit GW so hard they would have to start considering changing their model, I don't think the company would survive. To switch to something akin to PP, which is entirely internet sales and LGS-reliant, the company would have to shrink so much and so quickly that I think it would just shake apart.

But I don't think this phenomenon is limited to GW, or at least will not stay limited to GW. How much longer are tabletop games going to survive in a digital age? If you weren't addicted to these games, and could get the full-on Warhammer 40,000 experience by dropping $50 on a video game with no hours and hours spent building and painting, and not having to drive somewhere and be forced to meet other people to play, which would you choose? Personally, I love the social aspect of this hobby, and I'm a lifer. But how long are these companies going to survive if it becomes harder and harder to get some fresh recruits into buying your products, because video games are so much easier and cheaper?

[Norseman]

But I don't think this phenomenon is limited to GW, or at least will not stay limited to GW. How much longer are tabletop games going to survive in a digital age? If you weren't addicted to these games, and could get the full-on Warhammer 40,000 experience by dropping $50 on a video game with no hours and hours spent building and painting, and not having to drive somewhere and be forced to meet other people to play, which would you choose? Personally, I love the social aspect of this hobby, and I'm a lifer. But how long are these companies going to survive if it becomes harder and harder to get some fresh recruits into buying your products, because video games are so much easier and cheaper?

Our area had the MMORPG drain on our play group. However almost everyone came back after a year or two because they realized MMORPGs suck and ruin lives.

The two genres appeal to the same people. However I think Tabletop gaming will stick around, and rebound just as board games have in recent years.

[reegsk]

I do hope you're right, there, Norse. My worry is that the market will continue to shrink. There will always be tabletop gamers, just like there will always be books. But have you noticed that tabletop gaming companies and book companies seem to be having the same trouble lately? I work for Barnes & Noble, BTW.

[whatsnext]

I myself think that computers are getting more and more of the younger people. Kids want toys(AoBR is cool, but it gets in your face expensive after that purchase) but they first and foremost get online and with the connection to people today you can game with people anytime you like without the hassels that come with in person groups.

I like converting but its a rich mans hobby. bitz cost are higher than if you just buy the box, so there isnt any incentive to buy bitz.

MMORPG is life stealing but alot of new free games pop out all the time that are more skirmishing than paying to building a second life.

I like imagination, but there is a limit. Computers games are prepackaged and you just go with it, not much hassel and your in and out.

I can see there is a market for tabletop that will always be there b/c Privateer Press is doing well, and there is room for Mantic aparently.


Also GW must be ready for some pooch screwin if they plan a June increase.

[evicerator]

I, too, believe that tabletop is on its way out with uprising of MMOs.

I've been playing 40k since I was 14 back in 95. I spent 10 years living and breathing 40k. Then I picked up FFXI (an MMO) in the winter of 2004 and it quickly replaced ANY need to play 40k. The camaraderie, sportsmanship, friendship, sense of accomplishment, and socialization you got from spending hundreds of hours painting and modeling and assembling your minis and then carting everything off to an LGS to face off against someone else was all replaced by a simple $50 MMO purchase. You no longer needed to leave the comfort of the home to seek your gaming/social fix. No longer had to put up with the (growing) cons of visiting said LGS.

As others have said, tabletop gaming will always be around, same as books, it's just how it is. It just won't be as big as it used to be. I LOVE building and painting an army and showing it off on the tabletop, but at the same time, when I want to start a new army, I'm looking at dropping close to a grand or more every 5-10 years (give or take lame-o GW rule releases that either make or break an army.) Not to mention the DYING LGS environment. I live in a distant suburb of Detroit and there is 5 LGS in a 200 mile radius. 2 of those are cramped/crowded/hot/tiny/sales-buggered GW stores... In the last 7 years I have watched 4 "Rogue Trader" stores shut their doors leaving the local area left wondering where to go to play the game they love. It's sad, but the hobby is dying because there's no where convenient/comfortable to go to play (at least in this area.) Whereas with an MMO, I've limitless options with whom I can play with and at all hours of the day.

Also onto the topic of their White Dwarf publication: I couldn't agree more... WD was $5 back in '97 and for GW to double the cover price in a 10 year span is absurd. Especially given the lack of content they've published in recent years.

Anyways, I don't foresee GW having to shut their doors anytime soon. We'll all pay their prices and grin through gritted teeth with each new book/magazine/miniature release.

[THEFAN]

IMO:

Just my thoughts. Since GW started manufacturing it's items in China I will never again buy a GW item ever. All GW is is about profit above gaming or the gamers. I am currently dumping all my Older pre 90's GW items. I'm moving on once and for all. Yes GW has been good to me in my Game Store Owner days but Gw was a pain in the ass to deal with. The only reason it was good I knew how to sell and trade there product off to keep my business a live. I digress GW will get what it deserves but I think a lot of Corps will soon.

[Gargathor]

I, too, believe that tabletop is on its way out with uprising of MMOs.

At my small private school here in Wisconsin, we have twenty-two boys in 5th and 6th grade. Twleve of them play 40k, and one plays DnD. AND they paly video games. The two are not mutually exclusive. Video games are fun, but tabletop isn't going anywhere.

[evicerator]

I, too, believe that tabletop is on its way out with uprising of MMOs.

At my small private school here in Wisconsin, we have twenty-two boys in 5th and 6th grade. Twleve of them play 40k, and one plays DnD. AND they paly video games. The two are not mutually exclusive. Video games are fun, but tabletop isn't going anywhere.

Fair enough, but the target demograph of MMO's is older than 5/6th graders (for now anyways) due to the fact that those kids usually don't have their own PC to play for hours on end without interruption from mom/dad/sibling wanting to get on the family computer.

Think about it:

If I give a kid (who has grown up using a computer for social interaction. Look outside in your neighborhood. Where are all the kids that littered the streets everyday, playing sports and just soaking up the sun. They're inside, on a computer.) the option to play 40k against someone else using a PC/console:

• they can interact either with VoIP or type chat.
• They can see their tanks blow up with CGI animation, watch a horde of 40 Orks surround/engage/slaughter 10 marines with 'choppa sound FX and all the bloody gore their eyes can withstand, can hear their commanders give rousing speeches of valor, etc.
• They don't have to leave the house, travel 50 miles, spend money on food/drinks/gas, be cramped into a tiny gaming space with unhygienic players, and not return home with achy feet and a destroyed back from standing/leaning over a table for the past 3 hours.
• They don't have to learn/memorize a 200 page rule back with complex charts and sometimes misleading/confusing wording, the computer has it all and does it all for you.
• They don't have to learn/memorize 10+ different codices in order to know their opponent is playing their army right and/or not cheating, the computer prevents that.
• They don't have to spend thousands of dollars on an army that has the possibility of being wrecked in 5 years' time with a new codex change that makes the army play differently than they like.
• They don't have to spend hundreds of hours painting their army to get it to a standard where it'd be fun to not only play with them, but also fun to look at and admire.
• They don't need to beg and plead with their parents to get a spot in the house to cut/carve and paint.
• If their LGS shuts its doors they aren't left screwed with no where to play against anyone, rendering their entire hobby useless.

(I could go on an on with all of the "fusses/hardships" I've endured in my gaming career

With an MMO, all of that "fuss" is eliminated and streamlined for ease of use and convenience which translates to more enjoyment. All for the pittance of $15-20/month and you can play any time you like, for as long as you like.

Tabletop requires too much to work properly for it to be enjoyable. Too many elements that, if gone wrong, can ruin your experience. There will likely always be tabletop gaming, but it will likely never be what it once was prior to the explosion of the internet and video/online gaming.

[Noble Korhedron]

Regretfully, I have to agree with evicerator but I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not. I would rather not play an MMO as much as I do(Runescape), but with college the way it is right now, I don't have as much time for the hobby. I tend to play way more in vacation/holiday times than in term/work times....