Newb w/Quick Message to Long-time Bartertown Users

[starslayer]

Leth- you will pay first or ship same time with a new member with a 4 rating? ( $100 worth) Be honest.

[Adunaphel]

Now I understand shipping first to a point, however if my rating is 56 and theirs is something like 66 I don't think I should have to wait up 1+ weeks to get my minis or sit in what I consider the negative value zone(when I have more models out than are coming in).

If your rating is that close, then no, I see no reason your trade partner should ask you to ship first. This is NOT a rule. If you don't like it, don't do it. I know it's tough to let certain items go, but they usually come back around at some point. I have sent out mini's at the same time with guys in the 100's (or even lower if I have done a trade with them in the past). I think the feeling is that higher rated traders are intractable on this, and I think a LOT of us just aren't.

Also having a higher rating does not make you better, it could mean you are just at it longer. I got to 50 in about 3 months, does that mean someone who got to 200 over 4 years is better trader than me, I don't know just food for thought.

No, it doesn't make anybody better. But, it shows a pattern. Let's face it, most of us don't know each other at all. So, we need something to judge how trustworthy a trader is. A good trader will look at how long a trader has been here and how many trades they have done. I was personally on the website for over a year before I had much of a rating at all. Of course the site was a little different back then. I will tell you that if Porkuslime, Stanislav, Peacemystic, or Steven H. (or anybody else with a substantially higher rating than me) ASKED me to ship first, then I would have NO problem whatsoever in doing that. I think if you stay for awhile (unlike our original poster) you will see a reason why it's done this way. Especially, when you see your own hard work to keep your rating positive.

I understand my comments wont make a difference as people in a position of power don't like to give it up. However I have found that when I trade with the people who are newer and ship at the same time they seem much happier with the trade and hopefully will stay longer and contribute to the community.

This I don't agree with AT ALL. We have had traders with 0 ratings that give EVERYBODY ideas that help out the community. Your opinion counts for as much as anybody else's (except maybe Linrandir's). I don't see a rating as a "position of power". I am sure that there are guys out there who do. I see it as more of an experience thing. I guess I would've been happier when I started if my trade partners had always shipped at the same time. But, on the other hand, I would've thought that they were a little off if they trusted a new trader as much as somebody they knew about. I have said this before, but if you have a rating under 20 you have a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better chance of having a more pleasant trading experience if you ship first to one of the folks that I listed above then shipping at the same time with somebody at the same rating or lower.

Karl

[craasher]

I'm curious if there are any other users with low ratings that feel the same?

I will point out though that the "lower rating ships first" practice, is just that, a practice. It is not a rule. If you don't want to ship first, then you negotiate a compromise, or just don't do the deal if the guy doesn't want to budge on the point. As Lin pointed out, this is "Barter" -town. Every point of the deal is negotiable.

BTR forum doesn't really enforce the "lower rating ships first" practice either, as people with high ratings also have BTRs on them.

I never felt this way when I started. I had been around this site since 2004, but until recently when I was selling all my Games-Workshop stuff off I still had a relatively low rating. It doesn't take too much time to pay attention to what goes on on this site and pick out reputable people that you wouldn't mind sending stuff to first. And like you said I have had higher rating people send the money first on stuff a few times or ship at the same time when after you talk to them in PM's and they feel comfortable. I have always gone above and beyond in shipping and packaging, and done everything I can to communicate well. I have even gone so far as to apologize on days I told someone I would ship on Monday and it was Wednesday before I could get to the post office.

When I first started I was extremely nervous about sending someone money or figs that I didn't know. I looked for deals from traders who had higher ratings to protect myself even though I paid a few cents more on some deals than other offers. I think its called being a grown up and taking some personal responsibility and realize that the other person is taking a risk also. The only thing you can do is research options to lessen the risk but you are still taking one. It takes a self centered person to look on this site and see all the work the mods do on tracking down scammers, all the work they did on providing a rating system and guidelines, and the people who take painstaking cares to keep positive ratings and solve differences, and the only thing you get out of it is that a persons risk who has done a lot of trading here is less important then yours.

[leth]

Leth- you will pay first or ship same time with a new member with a 4 rating? ( $100 worth) Be honest.

Yea, if it is with paypal I just make sure that I have it as a seller so if it falls through I get my money back from paypal also this way it is out of my account and I know it is spent. Also yes I have traded with people with a 4 rating and shipped at the same time. Cause I am not trading anything I fear to lose, heck some of the models I am trading I have not looked at in over 5 years. That is a gamble I am taking with internet trading. So far it has not backfired, if it does than I will re-evaluate it then. However it has not so far and for the most part I think everyone is happier. It puts less pressure on me as I am busy and have a tendency to forget. Okay trade is done, package is in the mail, and when a package arrives it is like Christmas as I have forgotten who I was trading what to and it is a surprise. I would rather just get it out as I would not want to be on the receiving end. "O whoops I forgot, I will get it out in blank days" just does not cut it with me and I wouldn't do it to someone else. Heck my favorite is when we both get it the same day .

Also it falls back to my feeling of not being in debt. I would rather take a small risk than feel like I owe someone. On the same note, I don't mind too much shipping first cause most of the time people are on top of it. At the same time they are in debt to me, not I to them. Everyday that they don't have a package and I do I am in debt to that person. But that is a personal quirk.

"I guess I would've been happier when I started if my trade partners had always shipped at the same time. But, on the other hand, I would've thought that they were a little off if they trusted a new trader as much as somebody they knew about. I have said this before, but if you have a rating under 20 you have a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better chance of having a more pleasant trading experience if you ship first to one of the folks that I listed above then shipping at the same time with somebody at the same rating or lower. "

I understand 100% where you are coming from with this statement. But on the same token I don't know any of you except for one person who actually lived in the same town as me (funny right). I respect the rating system 100% it is proof that someone has shown good faith in the past, that is great however I trust you all the same for the most part regardless of rating(lots of neg will be a factor). I trust you as far as I can throw you, some of you are far away and I sure as heck aint making that drive to throw you.

[kturock]

Leth- you will pay first or ship same time with a new member with a 4 rating? ( $100 worth) Be honest.

Yea, if it is with paypal I just make sure that I have it as a seller so if it falls through I get my money back from paypal also this way it is out of my account and I know it is spent.

I guess you've never actually filed a claim with paypal. Paypal can only retrieve money that is still in their account. Most scammers withdraw the $ instantly, so you can't get it back.
As MM pointed out awhle ago; Paypal isn't a bank and has none of the protection that banks have. Paypal can't withdraw money from an attached bank account. They can't charge an attached charge card. All they can do is flag the account and hope that if/when more money goes into the account, the catch it, remove it and send it to you.

Yup, you got a lot of protection with PAypal. You actually have more protection with a personal check. There are laws against purposely bouncing a check. MM can provide further details if he wants.

Paypal, making money on false claims. Read the fine print.

[Stanislav]

On the subject of ratings over time. Your example of 50 in a year and the other's 200 in 4 years....

The higher number shows nothing more than a pattern. The more time, usually the more rating.

However, as many traders have found out on here, there is kind of a plateau. I would say the magical number is 300 in a rating. Someone can really try and get their rating up to 100 in a relatively short time (I did say relatively people), and after that 200 is a little more of a steep climb, but attainable. Getting past 300 (150+trades)...not so easy. It's for a variety of reasons. Lack of interest, lack of trade material, money (shipping costs, lull for a game in your current meta, etc).

Those of us with a rating greater than 300...yeah it means we have been here a while, but it takes a while to get through those lulls. Doesn't make us any better, but it does show perseverance and consistency. We all have bad times though. With all the trades I have done, I had one last week that just went horribly wrong all the way. Someone with a lower rating (no or little investment) could have just written it off, where I really tried to make things right as bad as they were going. Would a lower rated person do it? I would hope so, but the track record kind of stands out in that kind of instance.

@Leth- that's great and I hope you never have to rethink your ideas. Again with time though...I have had to, and decided that my rating should be used as my armor against things happening bad again.

[Ironhide]

Also it leads to situations like the one I am currently in. I made a mistake in describing my minis, I shipped them out. He deemed the trade unacceptable, my first thought was maybe I could include something else to make up for my mistake, however in his message he made it clear that this was not going to happen so I had to pay to send them back. Now less than a week later he agreed to a trade with the same models and 2-3 additional ones. So basically it is the same only I am out an additional 10 dollars. If we had each others models we would have been more likely to reach the later trade without me loosing additional money. Now if a trade could not be reached then we would have shipped each others back.

This is one of those times when I would have either refused the deal or made him send first, citing the fact that you had already sent the models before and wanted to work out a compromise. I am also beginning to wonder if this is becoming a common practice with higher ref traders, just so they can physically see the models before they decide to go through with the deal. If so, that is a very underhanded tactic.

[Stanislav]

Also it leads to situations like the one I am currently in. I made a mistake in describing my minis, I shipped them out. He deemed the trade unacceptable, my first thought was maybe I could include something else to make up for my mistake, however in his message he made it clear that this was not going to happen so I had to pay to send them back. Now less than a week later he agreed to a trade with the same models and 2-3 additional ones. So basically it is the same only I am out an additional 10 dollars. If we had each others models we would have been more likely to reach the later trade without me loosing additional money. Now if a trade could not be reached then we would have shipped each others back.

This is one of those times when I would have either refused the deal or made him send first, citing the fact that you had already sent the models before and wanted to work out a compromise. I am also beginning to wonder if this is becoming a common practice with higher ref traders, just so they can physically see the models before they decide to go through with the deal. If so, that is a very underhanded tactic.

That is underhanded. However, when something isn't described properly...

I had it happen in the last 2 months. Someone sent me a model that had been converted, but the owner was unaware of it's being converted. If it would have been easily fixable, I would have gone through with the deal. However, several parts had been modified and I refused the model. Too bad because I could have really used it. Just wasn't worth the extra effort, time, and money of ordering replacement parts from the online store. Not sure of this individuals circumstances, but you can't lump all "higher rated traders" together. Not a good sampling at all.

@Ironhide-it does seem like you are making a blanket statement of the ordeal, maybe not your intention. To me it sounds like Buyer's Remorse, especially if he came back requesting the same models plus some others.

[Ironhide]

@Ironhide-it does seem like you are making a blanket statement of the ordeal, maybe not your intention. To me it sounds like Buyer's Remorse, especially if he came back requesting the same models plus some others.

Buyer's remorse was what I was thinking. That or he thought he had a better deal to get the same models, and it fell through; so he went back to the original guy who still had the models.

I'm not saying all people with higher refs are doing it, but if a few are using this "tactic"; then it will look bad on the people who are not doing it.

Also, higher refs are good and all, but I have been on here since the site began; and my rating isn't even over 100. I don't care what a person's rating is, because I see the shipping part of a deal negotiable. If the guy I am dealing with has the higher value in the deal, I don't mind shipping first. If I have the higher value, I will usually ask them to ship first. If the values are about equal, I have no problem simul-shipping. With me, who ships first, depends on who has the most to lose. As someone already said, online trading/buying/selling is a gamble. No amount of references will save you from a package getting lost/stolen/damaged. YMMV.

[mrrshann618]

I've only been around a while and as stated earlier, my trades have begun to slow down. It happened for exactly the reasons listed, trade materials drying up, lack of intrest in finishing an old project.

One thing I have done a few times with the lower rating people who simply insist that I either simul-send or send first. Since generally if someone has a rating of 100+ points lower than me I tend to insist that they send first (barring circumastances such as Ironhides rating) I have recently agreed to send after the other side sends me a picture of the DC stub. This way I can see the PO stamp on the stub (usually) when the package was sent, I have a "hard copy" of the DC number (I've had at least one time where the number was given to me wrong), and I know that the package was indeed sent. I then head over to the PO and send my side, it is really not a "simul-send" but it is that tiny bit of security that both sides tend to feel they need. If the other side wishes me to do the same then I send a photo of the DC as well.

However to be honest only once have I had a problem with someone of a low standing refusing to send first. It however is part of the "purchase rather than trade" argument which I will no go into.

[JohnHwangBT]

As someone who HASN'T hawked thousands of $$s of tiny metal soldiers, orcs and spaceships online, let me tell ya I've grown weary of people with ratings of 10,000,000+ telling me I should just accept that they've got some cyber-based moral advantage over me and that I'm therefore obligated to take on the risk of shipping my stuff well before they decide they're ready to pay.

If you can't show a little faith in people, then don't expose yourself to online trading.

If you'd been buying you should have expected to pay before I took the risk of mailing my minis to you (the idea of mailing in hopes the $$ shows up after goods leave the door goes against every biz model I've heard of).

No fears, though. I ain't coming back.

Regards
Matt

Given that I've done vastly more trades / buys / sells here than you, if you can't ship first, we don't do the deal. Not an issue.

Given that I've earned the right not to have to show faith, why should I do so?

When you have a meal at restaurant, does the waiter require you to put cash on the table or an advance against your credit card?

Don't worry, with your attitude, you won't be missed.

Glad to see you go, please don't ever come back.

/John

[leth]

Subject: Newb w/Quick Message to Long-time Bartertown Users

As someone who HASN'T hawked thousands of $$s of tiny metal soldiers, orcs and spaceships online, let me tell ya I've grown weary of people with ratings of 10,000,000+ telling me I should just accept that they've got some cyber-based moral advantage over me and that I'm therefore obligated to take on the risk of shipping my stuff well before they decide they're ready to pay.

If you can't show a little faith in people, then don't expose yourself to online trading.

If you'd been buying you should have expected to pay before I took the risk of mailing my minis to you (the idea of mailing in hopes the $$ shows up after goods leave the door goes against every biz model I've heard of).

No fears, though. I ain't coming back.

Regards
Matt

Given that I've done vastly more trades / buys / sells here than you, if you can't ship first, we don't do the deal. Not an issue.

Given that I've earned the right not to have to show faith, why should I do so?

When you have a meal at restaurant, does the waiter require you to put cash on the table or an advance against your credit card?

/John

In your example who is providing who the service? I am assuming that the individual with more trades is the customer? Would it not make more sense that you both are the customer and that one of you has more experience and make recommendations.

Thank you every one for keeping this conversation civil, even though some points I have said may be counter to your opinion. Like I have said I have no problem with shipping first but I can see how someone would.

[Ironhide]

When you have a meal at restaurant, does the waiter require you to put cash on the table or an advance against your credit card?

At a fast food restaurant they do.

[JohnHwangBT]

Did I say McDonalds? No.

Step up in life and try a Denny's sometime.

[oaflord]

I was looking for some good "Don't let the door hit you..." imagery. Google-fu failure.

Here you go...