8th Edition Review

[starslayer]

Okay, think I may have found the equalizer. Is it true that units can move freely through terrain now?

Ive seen that on a few other forums. Id skip the "special" terrain most of the time though.

[Norseman]

Yes the special terrain is optional.

[Gorak]

pooor gunlines.... May I sugest a healthy balance ladies and gents, as shooting is better than in 7th but not game winning, remember you need an anvil at least cause most shooty troops die in droves in CC.

[Ironhide]

Except Dwarf Thunderers and Quarrellers are also good in hand-to-hand. Light armor, shield, hand weapon, crossbow/handgun, and a toughness of 4; with a Ld of 9. And they are still a troop choice.

[Gorak]

not bad, but with sucky int and str 3 will have a hard time if cav or fleshhounds hit em.

[starslayer]

not bad, but with sucky int and str 3 will have a hard time if cav or fleshhounds hit em.

We can play rock/paper/scissors all day. No troop or army list is unbeatable.

[Gorak]

oh just reading previous posts, DoC aren't nerfed! Are troops aren't VC we don't suck, think on this a bloodletter unit with the icon of endlesswar charges 5+ 3d6 on it's first charge tasty no? hearld of tzeentch with master of sorcery(25pts) and lore life....ever want to heal those flesh hounds? or what about those bloodcrushers? I have to re-state this....SHOOTING WILL NOT WHEN YOU THE GAME! A healthy balance of shooting/magic and some strong cc will still win over a pure gunline any day.

[starslayer]

An 8th edition expert already?

[Gorak]

An 8th edition expert already?

heh, I've noticed a few thingsa in the 9 games I've had.....I'm really of the opinion the min maxing will be hard in 8th and balance will win the day.

[Gorak]

Okay, think I may have found the equalizer. Is it true that units can move freely through terrain now?

Ive seen that on a few other forums. Id skip the "special" terrain most of the time though.

ther are two ways you can do it.....first off now matter what there will be a min of d6+4 pieces so no more fields to fight in. soa ny way the first way is to rnd generate the terrian, the second being chose the terrian so unless you and your oppent do not like the "special terrian" your bound to get a couple.

[Norseman]

I tried a few games on the weekend with the gunline. I do not know if it was just the opponents army I was facing or crappy roles. but both gunline armies I put down got smoked.

I first tried a 1500 80 Repeater Crossbowmen and 4 Repeater bolt throwers 2 sorceress. I quit after the second turn. (It was play testing my opponent understood, it wasn't a rage quit. LOL) Second was the 3 cannon 3 mortar 9 Outrider with a 30 swordsman with 15 handgunners and 15 freecompany. That one didn't last long either.

I do not know if it is just that Deamons are broken as heck. Or maybe shooting just has not gotten the boost I thought it did.

I honestly thought about it, and figured out, shooting has not received the big boost we thought it has. The current rules allow more archers to have field of vision but, most shooting is still needing 5s to hit and 4-5s to wound. I do not know if it was just my abysmal rolling or the fact that my opponents fast units were in HtH on the second turn. I only did about 10 true wounds after saves out of almost 200 shots in the first game and did worse with the artillery. I had forgotten that you can NEVER rely on artillery to win you the game, it scatters and it misfires far to often. I think the increased charge ranges have really nerfed shooting. i think it has its place but as Gorak said you are still going to need a balanced list. You will need a few HtH blocks to hold off those fast units from coming in and wiping you out.

Maybe dwarves can pull it off but my Dark Elf Gunline didn't work out so well. I think it would have done better against another army but Deamons is a good bar to measure your army upon.

[Asif Chaudhry]

oh just reading previous posts, DoC aren't nerfed!

And who said they were? I think it's been pretty well established that Daemons are a broken book at the moment.

Are troops aren't VC we don't suck, think on this a bloodletter unit with the icon of endlesswar charges 5+ 3d6 on it's first charge tasty no?

"I think it's been pretty well established that Daemons are a broken book at the moment."

hearld of tzeentch with master of sorcery(25pts) and lore life....ever want to heal those flesh hounds? or what about those bloodcrushers? I have to re-state this....SHOOTING WILL NOT WHEN YOU THE GAME! A healthy balance of shooting/magic and some strong cc will still win over a pure gunline any day. Just ask norseman.......

I'm pretty sure that even a "balanced" army will have it's lunch eaten by Daemons.

"I think it's been pretty well established that Daemons are a broken book at the moment."

As someone who plays with WARRIORS of Chaos (WoC), I am still waiting for 8th ed to come out in my area so I can give it a try. A bunch of my friends are excited to give it a go, so once we start playing games, I'll let everyone know how things go.

[Asif Chaudhry]

I tried a few games on the weekend with the gunline. I do not know if it was just the opponents army I was facing or crappy roles. but both gunline armies I put down got smoked.

Interesting - what were the scenarios? What was the terrain set up like? Who were you playing against? What list did the opposing army use?

I first tried a 1500 80 Repeater Crossbowmen and 4 Repeater bolt throwers 2 sorceress. I quit after the second turn. (It was play testing my opponent understood, it wasn't a rage quit. LOL) Second was the 3 cannon 3 mortar 9 Outrider with a 30 swordsman with 15 handgunners and 15 freecompany. That one didn't last long either.

I do not know if it is just that Deamons are broken as heck. Or maybe shooting just has not gotten the boost I thought it did.

Ah.....well, I'd still be interested to hear what 1500pt list your opponent made up, but as I said to Gorak:

"I think it's been pretty well established that Daemons are a broken book at the moment."

I'll be very interested to see what the "Army Book Update FAQ" that comes out with the hardcover says about the Daemons.

I honestly thought about it, and figured out, shooting has not received the big boost we thought it has. The current rules allow more archers to have field of vision but, most shooting is still needing 5s to hit and 4-5s to wound. I do not know if it was just my abysmal rolling or the fact that my opponents fast units were in HtH on the second turn.

Probably more of the later - Although the Daemons "super fast" units like Seekers and Flesh hounds got slowed down a little, all of their infantry got a decent speed boost (going from 8" charges to 4" + 2d6 gives an average of 11", with a max of 16, with higher numbers for Bloodletters and Daemonettes).

That said - just do a little thought experiment. For the next couple of games, when you roll your shooting, roll in 2 groups - the first set being the guys who would have shot in 7th ed, and the 2nd group, roll for the additional guys that 8th ed is giving you. Track the hits and wounds, record the results, and compare.

I'm pretty sure 8th has improved the numbers of dice you throw by quite a bit. Now - if you are a suck-&ss die roller, it won't matter, but at least you'll have more throws of the dice to demonstrate your crappiness with.

I only did about 10 true wounds after saves out of almost 200 shots in the first game and did worse with the artillery. I had forgotten that you can NEVER rely on artillery to win you the game, it scatters and it misfires far to often. I think the increased charge ranges have really nerfed shooting. i think it has its place but as Gorak said you are still going to need a balanced list. You will need a few HtH blocks to hold off those fast units from coming in and wiping you out.

Ehh - Depends on the army. Depends on what the HtH blocks are. It's true - you can't rely on just Artillery. But, I really think the improvements to shooting infantry have given a significant boost and will make life more difficult for pure HtH armies.

I don't have the models for this, but if you (or someone in your group does), try this:

20 models of Elf spears with bows (or repeater). Line up 10 wide to begin the game. When the daemons are getting close - reform to 5x4. Let him charge into 20 spear attacks that go first. I'll be interested to see what happens then.

Do NOT line up at the front edge of your deployment zone - hang back. Force him to waste more time marching. Use dark riders or Ellyrians to cancel marches - fire and flee if the daemons try to catch. Sacrifice if necessary.

Maybe dwarves can pull it off but my Dark Elf Gunline didn't work out so well. I think it would have done better against another army but Deamons is a good bar to measure your army upon.

I think Daemons are a bad bar because the army book is broken - that's why all the cheesy munch players are using the list for their tournaments. Again, I look forward to seeing what the army book update FAQ says/does to the list.

I do expect Dwarves to do better - their basic infantry is better, their handguns get +1 to hit at close range, crossbows have a greater range than bows, and their artillery is of superior ability (flame cannons, gyrocopters). Throw in great magic runes, and they are tough to shift.

That said - if your local scene is infested with Daemon players, then learning how to fight and beat them would certainly behoove you.

[Gorak]

Now I agree with most of what you said but I do not belive the DoC book is broken, now I've never ran fateweaver+scribes and my 1500pt army in 8th doesn't even have a named character aka skulltaker or the masque. OH and dwarf handguns are +1 to hit always! oh and good advice on the elves front, I just hope not of my HE oppents see this thread

[Ironhide]

My point from previous post is that dwarf shooty units have always been better than other army shooty units when it comes to HtH. Heck, Dwarf Quarrellers can even take Great Weapons. What other shooty unit can do that?