I've said it before....

[fitterpete]

qoute<As you can see from his posts above (and as I would have pointed out, otherwise), any GOOD trader will make amends.
If he tells you to keep the busted up one and sends you a new one... Is that not a resolution? Or, instead of sending the new one, sends enough cash for you to buy a replacement?
What (name deleted) has done above is demonstrate that he IS a good trader. Even though (by many opinions) you jumped the gun on leaving the negative ref & the BTR, he's still taking responsibility and trying to make things right.
This is the kind of thing a Good Trader does. You can be a Good Trader and F* up. Shoot. I know *I* have done it. Being a good trader doesn't mean not making mistakes or judgement errors. It means you don't hide from your mistakes & you work to make them right.>qoute
This is a qoute from a wise man.
Pete

[EVIL INC]

Simma down now guys. Your getting too worked up over this.
I have a current situation where someone decided to not put all the parts in his package to me. personally, I contacted him. He said he would fix the issue and then after over a month of waiting, I started the BTR. Even then, I held off on the neg ref until I was absolutely sure he was not going to send.
Personally, I have had issues with being able to send stuff in a timely manner. I contacted my partner each time to let them know. I have even sent something out and had the envelope take damage in transit. Luckily, nothing was lost as I had taped and wrapped the items inside the envelope. My partner warned me about it and I will make sure to use better padded envelopes. I thanked him for the advice and plan to take it. had something been lost, it would have been my fault.
In shipping out, the shipper is responsible and should take the extra time to be extra cvarefull. I have a current partner who will find the package he gets to be like Fort Knox and he is only getting Magic cards that dont break. I always try to add extras in to give my partner a pleasant surprise.
To be honest, if I were to suddenly lose my internet, I would find a way to contact a partner. Even if I had to go to a buddies house and ask if I could use their computer.
Regardless of the situation, it is nothing to get too bent out of shape about if we get a deserved neg or btr. If it is undeserved, it will be fixed. The ones who should be bent out of shape are the ones getting busted up stuff or nothing at all.

[kturock]

OK kturock you obviuosly have it in your head that no matter what happens someone deserves a neg ref when something goes wrong.Fine.
Anyone else?
BTW No I didn't know I was getting seperated.One night she came home and said I was out.At the time I don't think I would have said"Oh ,OK well let me get on the computer and notify my trade partners before I leave" Guess that makes me "irresponsible " in your book.
Not real sure what you didn't understand about me not having any computer access either.It wasn't about "not having anytime' it was not having any access.Libraries have certain hours and I was working during them.But I guess that's me being irresponsible again cause I had to work.
Pete

When something goes wrong BECAUSE YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG, then yes you deserve a negative ref. When something gets lost, then no it's not your fault. When things get destroyed or damaged, and you packed it properly, then no, your not at fault. But I guess you didn't bother to read my entire post, like you accuse me of doing with your posts.

And I guess it does, I had my mother die and then several years later my dad died, and I was able to take 5 minutes, from calling all the family, from calling the hospitals, lawyers and funeral home to pm the several different trade partners, and say.. *edit* just hit the fan, and I'll me out of touch. I'll PM you when I can.
I even ran a business and had to overcome adversity, and put customers ahead of my own problems. That's the defintion of responsibilty.

I won't speak about you personal problems. You posts speak volumes.

[Ironhide]

KEEP IT CIVIL.

It also occurs to me that in the past we have berated people for not acting quick enough, now we are getting on them for acting too hasty. Can't have it both ways.

This was not just about Paypal disputes. If some traders in the past had posted their BTRs a little more quickly, then we would not have had multiple traders get scammed by one individual (ex: the_trader). BTRs are there to let all of us other traders know of potential scammers.

People need to take a few things away from this conversation: 1) You don't have to post a BTR when you leave a negative ref, it's not a requirement; 2) A negative ref can be appealed to an Admin as long as it is within 30 days; 3) If a BTR is bogus, the Staff will nuke it and repercussions will ensue.

I personally don't like it when someone jumps the gun in posting a BTR, but I also know that everyone doesn't follow the same code of ethics. That's life. I accept that. The real problem is that most people come on here to trade and don't read threads like this. If they all did, then a lot of these kinds of things wouldn't happen. I encourage you all to try and get your trade partners engaged in participating in the non-trade boards.

[fitterpete]

This is me keeping it civil.
Well that was rather petty and uncalled for.
You have shown what a great trader you are.I bow to your tradership.
Pete

[kturock]

I guess you consider it civil, when you snipe and limit the name calling.

It's now obvious, that you had a problem with 1 trader. You should have kept all this private and pm'd him and the mods.

Instead you created a public spectacle, looking for pity or sympathy. You didn't get the response you wanted, so yo're lashing out.

I wouldn't be surprised if this has influenced potential future trade partners negatively.

[Ironhide]

@ fitterpete: Yeah that was very civil. Pretty childish too.

@ kturok: No it is not obvious kturok. If it were obvious, then fitterpete would have a negative ref and a BTR on him; which he doesn't. So you assuming this is all about him is incorrect.

You can both have your own viewpoints on this matter. You do not have to respect those view points, but you do have to accept them and move on.

Kturok's viewpoint: If something goes wrong with the trade and the trader at fault could have fixed it, but chose not to; then he is wrong and can be dinged for it.

fitterpete's viewpoint: You should contact the trader at fault and give them a chance to rectify the problem before you ding them.

Does that about sum it up?

[BTWilliams]

No matter what the problem is.....damaged items, items left out, items misrepresented, lack of contact, slow arrival.....I find it hard to believe that anyone can just assume certain discrepancies were intentional without contacting the other party to get a clearer understanding. I also find it hard to believe anyone would know how they would react, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to a given situation if your circumstances were that of another. Everyone's circumstances are as unique to them as a fingerprint and how they choose to, or are even able to, deal with certain situations should not be dismissed off-hand.

Now, while there are folks who intentionally act with disregard for others, and therefore deserve negative refs and possibly BTR's, this is not the case for everyone. And as a good trader I feel it is my responsibility to make sure this is not the case before I put a black mark on someone's record. I'm not saying you have to go for weeks and weeks trying to sort things out. It will be obvious, soon enough, if the other party is scamming you. And if this is the case then you SHOULD take the appropriate action. But at least give them the opportunity to rectify the problem before you take that final step. And sometimes it's just not worth the effort. I've had a couple of deals where the other person just suddenly disappears. A little time wasted but no money or gaming items lost so it's not really worth a BTR. At least as far as I'm concerned. I just make a mental note for future reference. While this may not be the perfect solution it' always worked for me.

[Ironhide]

No matter what the problem is.....damaged items, items left out, items misrepresented, lack of contact, slow arrival.....I find it hard to believe that anyone can just assume certain discrepancies were intentional without contacting the other party to get a clearer understanding.

Because traders are supposed to fully represent their items. It's in the rules. So if you get something, and it isn't what you were led to believe it was, then the trader who sent it to you is at fault. Now if the trader who sent it to you has a 300+ rating, or has been a long time member here; then I would find it hard to think he wasn't knowledgeable about his merch.

For example: If a trader with a 300+ rating says he has the newest edition SW, and we agree on a trade, and then when I get them they are the old 2nd edition metal SW; well, I probably wouldn't think twice about giving him a negative ref and a BTR.

[EVIL INC]

Similarly, I had a guy offer me a new on sprue unit of assault marines. When they arrived, I found the person had scavenged all of the heads plus a bunch of other parts off of the sprue (without telling me as he had described the sprues as containing all of the parts). As I was new and the other person had well over 100 trades here, I was intimidated into only giving a neutral ref when I contacted him to see if he was willing to fix the issue (which he was not). In revenge, he gave me one as well. I had no problems explaining my case and it was removed from my "record". It was not "hurting me" but to me it was a matter of principle as he misrepresented me as much as he had his product in his ref.

[MagickalMemories]

I leave you guys alone for one frigging day...

IH, I think you've done a good job being the voice of reason over the last page and a half. I wish people would have paid more attention to what you had to say.

I will tell you, as an Admin...

If Trader X sends Trader Y something that Trader Y has a problem with (poorly painted minis were in the 2nd row of a pic, with better painted wones in Row 1, missing models, parts, etc.), and Trader Y turns around and leaves him a negative without giving him the chance to fix it... I'm not going to like that.
If Trader X complains to be about the negative and is willing to make amends on it (and would have told Trader Y as much, had "Y" contacted "X," I would counsel the 2 to work it out.
If Trader X made good on his side of the trade, I would be inclined to remove the negative at his request.
I'd PM 2 other Admins, tell them my intent, and see what they thought. After we discussed it, I'd make my decision - giving their opinions AT LEAST equal weight to my own. If they agreed, I would remove that negative. Period.

I suspect that there will be some who sees this as reasonable and some who see it as some sort of a violation of a trader's right to leave the ref they see fit.
You're both welcome to your respective opinions.

I believe firmly in getting what you deserve... what you earned.
If you earned the negative, you should have it.
If, on the other hand, you worked your butt off to make the best of it (and ensured that your trade partner got AT LEAST what they were promised), I do not see how a negative can be justified for "inconvenience."



That said, I am going to reiterate what IH posted earlier.

Keep.
It.
Civil.

There's NO need for name calling, sniping, or butting heads. We're all (okay... most...) reasonable adults here. There's NO good reason we can't have differing opinions and still treat each other respectfully.


Eric

[carmachu]

No matter what the problem is.....damaged items, items left out, items misrepresented, lack of contact, slow arrival.....I find it hard to believe that anyone can just assume certain discrepancies were intentional without contacting the other party to get a clearer understanding.

Go to the bad trader forum, look at one filed against me. She BTR'd, then opened a bad trade without even contacting me. Then, makes a couple comments and then vanishes off the earth, not responding to both public and private offers of a new model on spure.

It happens. It sucks, but what can you do.

[BTWilliams]

@ carmachu:

Oh, believe me, I know it happens. I was just making the statement that I can't believe this type of behavior happens. I am in total agreement with you and feel the "offended" party should always make contact with the other person and not just assume the slight was intentional. Even experienced trader make mistakes. I did take a look at your references to see what had transpired and I'm amazed someone would go off half-cocked like that without al least trying to get in touch with you to see what was going on. But as you said, "What can you do?".

[carmachu]

@ carmachu:

Oh, believe me, I know it happens. I was just making the statement that I can't believe this type of behavior happens. I am in total agreement with you and feel the "offended" party should always make contact with the other person and not just assume the slight was intentional. Even experienced trader make mistakes. I did take a look at your references to see what had transpired and I'm amazed someone would go off half-cocked like that without al least trying to get in touch with you to see what was going on. But as you said, "What can you do?".

They funny part is, you look literally 1 up from that one, and can see someone else had an issue, which was resolved to his satisfaction. Enough so that he, un solicited, posted a good trade reference that he was happy. He didnt have to, no one even knew that the issue exsisted, but he did so.

All she had to do was drop me a note. But....she's dropped off the face of the earth. Oh well. I have the new model in a bag tacked to the wall should she ever show up.

[JohnHwangBT]

It also occurs to me that in the past we have berated people for not acting quick enough, now we are getting on them for acting too hasty. Can't have it both ways.

No, we can't. However, we can expect "reasonable" timeliness, which is generally somewhere between 2 days and 2 weeks. Expecting same-day turnaround by one's trade partner, or waiting months are both excessive.

Not quick enough
- waiting more than a few days to inventory items received
- waiting more than a few days to send items / payment owed
- waiting more than a week to contact trade partner with regular status update
- waiting more than a couple weeks to contact trade partner when something goes wrong
- letting the (~30-day) eBay / PayPal / whatever dispute period expire when something goes wrong

too hasty
- expecting reply without giving partner a few days to respond
- expecting payment / shipment without giving partner a few days to send
- posting BTR without giving partner a few days to respond
- posting Neg without giving partner a few days to make right

There is a balance, and it's not hard to find.

Of course, if people would simply set and follow timetables, this all becomes a lot easier.

/John
____

@fitterpete: I'm sorry you got kicked out of your home, but given a few days, you can certainly get back to your trade partners. If RL is too important, then you'll get the BTRs and Negs that you deserve. Expecting people to give you slack when you don't even bother to communicate isn't reasonable.