Question about shipping

[Stanislav]

Magikal, Sid, one of you guys that is pretty experienced and vocal,

So, if nothing is mentioned in a trade negotiation about whether the shipping should be simultaneous, should not the default go to rating? With someone that is brand new to the whole scene, I can understand there being some grey area, but not someone with 15+ trades under their belt.

I "assumed" it was understood, but maybe I was wrong. I have spent a long time on Bartertown building my rating, and unless someone is a very established trader (100+ rating), I do not believe in sending out at the same time, and sometimes even then I won't (until I recieve their end of the deal).

There was a time when I refused to deal with Canadians, just because of the extra hassle, and plus I got burned pretty hard. Nothing against the 1000s of good Canadian traders out there, it just happens. Recently, I have had several good sales/trades with some Canadians and I have reopened the borders. However, with the inordinate time it takes to get there (even with airmail) because of customs and such, and the inability of really tracking a parcel, I am rethinking my change of heart.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Rich

[belisarius]

Rich
Having had to have many of the things come to me from the States and experiance the long shipping times. I would go with the one with the lowest rating ships first. That is no matter how high their trade number was. That being said, if I had traded with the individual in the past and they had a high rating. I would send my stuff out and let them decided to send at the same time or wait for it to arrive. Shipping times to canada can be so random. I have seen as low as four days and as high as three weeks.

Brian

[ekister]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here.

I do not send first anymore except for the following:

They have a rating higher than mine (which is rare most times) or
I have completed a positive and quick trade with them before.

If either of those are the case, I send ASAP and know that I will get what they agreed to send. I don't even think about it when it is someone I have dealt with in the past. I know I'll eventually get the stuff, or money back.

As far as trading to Canada or even overseas. If they have a higher rating, I ask them to send at the same agreed upon date. If I have dealt with them before, I ask the same. Otherwise they are sending first and when I get their items, I send mine. Sometimes it takes time, but if I get what I need, then I am happy. I will say that I have turned down some overseas/Canadian trades because it wasn't a big enough trade, or it wasn't something I really, really needed. One thing I also do with trades outside the United States is tell them up front I am not responsible for anything I send them unless I can insure it (some places you can and others you cannot). I will provide shipping proof with reciepts with their zip/address and thats all I can do for them. Sorry.

Hope this helps with what others with lots of trades do.

Ekister

[Stanislav]

I had done a sale with this person before, but never a trade. So, I held off on shipping until I had the items in hand. Then he wants to make a snide comment when I PM him to ask if they had arrived yet. It was "if you are in such a hurry to complete the transaction, you should haveshipped the models earlier".
My answer to that is to never bother trading with him again, and to edit my sig.

Rich

[MagickalMemories]

Well... You called me out by name.
Guess I almost had to answer, huh? LOL

Now, what I say might agree or disagree with what some others say or have said. No disrespect to them. This is just my opinion.


First:
I have NO problem with Canadian (British, Ukranian, Polynesian, etc.) traders. Just like in the U.S., MOST are great traders and only a few bad. In that regard, I mark no differences.

Due, 100%, to the horrifying ship times (most prevalently with Canada), I non longer seek out deals with anyone I know not to be in the US. If I start a deal and later find it's with someone in a different country I will, most likely, break it off.

In MAY or this year I began a trade with a Canadian with a GREAT rating. We came to an agreement for trade and a simu-ship. I sent mine out (alot of lag time between emails, too... waiting for him to respond). I waited and waited and never heard from him or received my package. <<edit for brevity>>

What it boiled down to was that this guy LIED to me about when he shipped my package (it was postmarked AFTER he received mine) -- almost a full month late. Additionally, some items were in a condition that A GOOD TRADER would have mentioned (pieces of metal minis FILED OFF, etc.). In the end, I decided to drop it. It wasn't worth it. Everything was usable, if misrepresented. I was astounded at his high rating with NO mention of problems like this before. If this was normal for him, he would have SURELY gotten dinged for it before. Yes? I also discovered another US trader who waited forever to get his package with similar details to my own trade.

In the end, I decided that, had it been a US trade, I could have insisted on delivery confirmation and I'd have KNOWN it was not in the mail when iw as told it was.

Not trading outside the US is worth it to me to be able to track my shipments

Would I ever trade outside the US? Sure. But only if THEY approached ME and only if they (regardless of ITL) agreed to ship/pay first. The untrackable packages are just not worth it to me.
Plus, it's a lot easier for me to drive to their house from here (Missouri), even if they are in California, to obtain my stuff than it would be if they were in, say, Canada or England.

I have had some WONDERFUL outside the US trades... I've just decided to stop approaching them now, due to that one trade and a history of horrible Canadian customs.

Second:
While I agree that lower rating should ship first in most circumstances, I don't like saying that anything should be "default." I mean, that assumes a certain amount of knowledge or expereince that a person may not have. I think it is the more expereinced person's responsibility to ensure that the details get ironed out.


(Nothing personal newbies)
Use Kids and parents as an example. We (the expereinced) are the parents and they (Newbies) are the kids. It is our responsibility to model appropriate behavior and, when things do not go as they should, to point it out and show them the right way. Even if they have 15+ trades.

KWIM?

Now, 15+ trades is a lot... and someone with that kind of rating shouldn't let things go unspecified. But, keep in mind, that includes YOU as well.
In my opinion, if someone didn't specify to ME that he was not going to ship simu., I would presume that he WAS going to.

Take yourself, Gobbo. If we bartered a trade and, for some reason, I had a brainfart and forgot to ask about what the shipping order was, I would naturally presume it to be simu. Now, I know you FAR outweigh me in rating... but mine is nothing to sneeze at. Add in my constant presence in the forums, and I am, IMO, a well established part of Bartertown.

I can only make certain assumptions as to whether or not you are referring to other threads that may or may not include you in an unmentioned manner... If you ARE, however, I can only say that it seems to be a case of nobody thinking in the big picture.

Assume nothing. Always specify. If you want someone to ship first, tell them... before they send their package. Sometimes, it is a deal breaker.

There are 2 recent cases that come to mind that I wouldn't ship/pay first... both currently have Bad Trader threads on them for the specific items I would not ship/pay first on.

So, to sum it up, I neither agree or disagree with your opinion on simu-sending. I can see where you would presume (rightfully, IMO) that you would not be shipping first or at same time with someone whose rating is about one-seventh of your own... but I can also see that shipping is something that should always be discussed... What order, what type, whether or not to use ameneties (Ins., D.C., etc).


So, in the end, this might be of no help and a total waste of space... but, hey... look at all the pretty words! LOL

Eric
... and you gotta LOVE that sig line!

[Stanislav]

Not saying I am right or wrong, but since my rating is that much higher, I assumed he knew he would have to ship first. I know, never assume. That part is totally my fault, but getting snotty with me afterwards...whatever.

You would figure that with 10 emails/PMs, that those details would have come up, but they never did.

[Brian Khazad]

Looking at it from a Newbie's point of view (no offense taken, Eric.), I'm not sure how much I can add to it, but I would like to post up a couple of thoughts. First, I'm in the middle of a trade with BG right now - Forest Goblins and some Bitz for some Eldar stuff and some Bitz - and as the newbie with no references whatsoever, I assumed I was shipping first - it seems to be the way with BT, and I have no problem with it.

From a newbie POV (well, this newbie anyway), if it's someone that I've traded with before (IE if BG and I entered into another trade later) and both of us had a good experience with it, I would ASK to ship first. But as long as I had a lot lower rating, I wouldn't demand it nor would I be too put out if I was declined. In any case, I do believe in making sure the shipping scheduals are in-writing up front so that both sides know what to expect - this protects both sides really. I guess I would never assume a simul-ship, no matter what the relative trade references are. If we agree to it, that's great. Otherwise, lets hash out who ships first and be organized about it.

To be honest, I don't know if I like BG's sig or not. I think it took Rich and I what... 5 or 6 Emails to agree on our trade? By the same token, I just shipped another trade (worth a lot more) with an established BTer that took 13 emails to iron out. I would rather spend the extra emails/PMs/whatever to make sure that I'm getting exactly what I think I'm getting, and to assure the other trader that he's getting exactly what he thinks he's getting - that way neither side ends up suprised or disappointed. If I got a bum deal on a $200 trade because I didn't ask enough questions and/or the email negotiations didn't go on long enough, I'd be wishing I'd sent 20 more emails.

I too have had some troubles with shipping to/from Canada and other countries - ebay stuff and a few other-site trades. Consequently, my preference is not to deal with international trades. Note I said trades and not traders - I don't have any problems with the traders, just the difficulties that internation trades pose. If the deal is sweet and the other side is willing to pay the extra to ship via fedex or something with a tracking system, I'd probably be willing to take the chance. Otherwise, it just isn't worth the weeks and weeks of waiting and never knowing when or if the item will arrive.

-Dwarf

[Stanislav]

A 10 email/PM discussion to get details ironed out is fine, a 10 email/PM needling me to see if I have this or that, trying to see if I will up my offer is unacceptable to me.

Do you have any VC? How about some of this, etc...when I have already stated my trades...It was just frustrating. One email saying the whole thing, like: "We are a little short on the trade on my part, do you have any VC Direwolves, Grave Guard, Chaos Warriors, or Chaos Spawn" would have been fine. One-line PMs over and over again were my hang-up. If you forget something in the original post, sure send me another.

If he wouldn't have had something I needed for a project, I would have dropped it right then. And like I said earlier, getting snotty with me afterwards, I don't think so. I have been here on Bartertown for a long while, and I am not saying it entitles me to any special treatment, I feel that the ratings do mean a lot. Also, if I get a retaliatory feedback becasue I am voicing my concerns, well, I have kept all of the emails for proof that I did nothing wrong.

Rich

[vesrian]

A 10 email/PM discussion to get details ironed out is fine, a 10 email/PM needling me to see if I have this or that, trying to see if I will up my offer is unacceptable to me.

Do you have any VC? How about some of this, etc...when I have already stated my trades...It was just frustrating. One email saying the whole thing, like: "We are a little short on the trade on my part, do you have any VC Direwolves, Grave Guard, Chaos Warriors, or Chaos Spawn" would have been fine. One-line PMs over and over again were my hang-up. If you forget something in the original post, sure send me another.

I know exactly what you mean, and totally agree with you.
BUT... Your sig reads (to me) as kindof asinine. When i read it, i didn't take it to mean what you wrote above. Instead, it came across as expressing a general unwillingness to be open to communication through the trading process. I'd avoid trading with anyone like that. Of course i know NOW that's not what you meant. But that was the impression i got when i first read it.
Anyway, that was my take on it.

I've never considered there to be a 'default' shipping policy, it's always been something that came up in negotiation. But when i propose a shipping order, it's based on low rating sends first. I've always seen simul-sending as a judgement call by the person with the higher rating.

As for Canadian trades - I don't do foriegn trades for all the reasons mentioned by others. I've done them in the past, but at some point i decided that the added hassle just wasn't worth it. I suspect that the vast majority of Canadian traders understand that it's not some slight to their nation, merely a decision based on the reality of the situation. I hope some day the problems shipping across borders get resolved somehow. Until then, i feel justified (if a bit sad) with my decision.

[Commander_Dante]

I know that many of us new folks that join here may be looked upon as an "Unreliable or Shady Trader" until we build up some backing for ourselves. I feel that Lower rating shipping first should be done by the new folks Until we get some sort of good backing and I'm not talking 1 or 2 good trades, I'm saying at least 10 unless that person can be vouched for by a reliable source of trading (someone such as Linraider, Insidious, or Magickal to name a few). With as many bad traders as there are out there I can understand why some of the more experienced traders (such as BG, Magickal, Sid, Ect.) out there would expect us to ship first. I have no problem with Shipping first being a Newbie, many of you out there have what I'm looking for and I'm more than happy to do what I have to in order to get what I need, if that means shipping first until I have a Rating of 500 then so be it. This is only my opinion, I know not all of us new folks feel this way and I'll probably hear about it in the near future for speaking my mind about this but oh well, I'm used to it . Well all, thats what I had to say, any constructive criticism is welcome , have a good one.

[Stanislav]

Ves: Good point about my sig. I was so frustrated when I wrote it...I can see how it can be taken wrong. So, I will just steal part of Magikals. It is pretty to the point.

Dante: I understand, and it is not that I expect someone to have a higher rating before I send something at the same time. However, my idea of "established" is a lot more than 10. Established to me is more like 25-30 trades (so we are talking a rating of 50+), and even then, I would have to consider it. Like I said, I am sorry, but I feel that I have spent enough time on here that I can have the luxury of not sending first. Not trying to be a jerk, but I have worked to get my rating that high, so I feel like I deserve to be able to rest on my laurels. There are exceptions to all rules of course.

[MagickalMemories]

Wow. Where to start?
In order, I guess...


Ves:

I've never considered there to be a 'default' shipping policy, it's always been something that came up in negotiation. But when i propose a shipping order, it's based on low rating sends first. I've always seen simul-sending as a judgement call by the person with the higher rating.

That's about how I look at it. My sig says it all but I have made exceptions and done simu-send many times... even sent cash first a time or two. I think that every, or almost every time I did that, it was MY decision with NO request from the other trader. "You know. I'm happy with your rating, so I'm okay with sending at the same time, if you are." Like you say, though... it is a judgement call.

Also, I agree on B.G.'s old sig line, to a point. I never had the opportunity to trade with him, that I can recall, but you can guarantee that I'd have sent LONG emails to ensure that we kept them down to less than 10. LOL
I saw it as being a little harsh, but it wouldn't have kept me away from trading entirely.

_Dante:

I feel that Lower rating shipping first should be done by the new folks Until we get some sort of good backing and I'm not talking 1 or 2 good trades, I'm saying at least 10

Well, you have the right idea but I have to lean towards B.G.'s estimate here. Typically, unless you have an established and constant presence in the discussion areas *I* frequent, I'll still see someone as newISH until you hit 15 to 20 good trades... or 10 or more trades and over a year of regular participation. Mostly, though, it is a FEEL thing. If you have a 40 rating and only 20 or so posts showing up in your "total posts" line... that is just wierd to me. The higher that post, the better I feel... and I check those posts out before completing a potential trade with a lower rating if I as paying first or shipping simu... I want to be sure they are ACTUAL posts and not one-liners.

...unless that person can be vouched for by a reliable source of trading (someone such as Linraider, Insidious, or Magickal to name a few).

Now, I know you were only using those names as EXAMPLES, and not assuming anything but, just so you know... I KNOW I wouldn't (and feel I can safely assume the same for the other two) EVER "vouch" for another trader based on my past experiences trading with them. That's putting MY rep on the line if they decide to "go rogue."
the only people I ever have or ever WILL vouch for are people who are REGULAR acquaintences/friends of my own from my personal life. If I trust them enough to vouch for them, then I am willing to put my name on the line (I feel I've earned a good rep., even beyond my rating, here... no matter what Linrandir's "special vision" sees me doing! LOL). Risking MY good name is a big dea for me.
Additionally, I don't think you will find any regular trader here willing to vouch for you based on trades. There are too many Chaos factors involved.... Or, the ONE chaos factor involved is too big... Whatever.

That's why the ITL is there. It says "Look. This guy has traded with THESE people before, guaranteed, and THIS is what they had to say about them." I think that is about the best you'll get.



B.G.:

I am sorry, but I feel that I have spent enough time on here that I can have the luxury of not sending first. Not trying to be a jerk, but I have worked to get my rating that high, so I feel like I deserve to be able to rest on my laurels. There are exceptions to all rules of course.

Don't apologize. Your history, and ratings, hold a LOT of water. IMO, it is a matter of respect, as well. I KNOW you have a LOT of expereince in ANYTHING I might do here. Geez! With (what?) 106 (?) successful trades (as of writing this), I'd say you've expereinced just about every trade situation there is (from "I got sick" to "Oops. I forgot" to misrepresented models and God only knows what else).
I think you ought to be able to sit back and say, "Look. this is how *I* trade. If you are trading with ME, this is how we do it."

Shoot. Shipping first ALWAYS makes me a bit edgy until I get the return package at my door. You are one of, probably, a dozen traders (tops) that I could name that I'd never have that worry.
You've earned a lot of respect. Bask in it.


Just my input, for what it's worth.


Eric