Ethics discussion for purchases never delivered

[imp522]

I don't see any of them as being harsh words. When you're in their position of paying them and then not receiving what you ordered nor any communications from them you can go ahead and feel all warm and fuzzy and not complain about them.

Bottom line is their are people out there who have legitimate complaints with said company and the OP had full permission to post here.

[EVIL INC]

The bottom line is that they have full permission to post here and that those people may actually have legitimate complaints. I TOTALLY agree with that.
My only points are
1. Justice is better then revenge. I personally disagree with them in that I feel it is better to solve the logistics issues so that the company can get back on it's feet in terms of filling orders and doing it in a timely fashion. Simply running the company out of business in revenge (as they are advocating and encouraging as proven by the quotes I provided), I personally feel is not the way to go.
2. I disagree with them in that I think it is wrong to flat out accuse the company of TRYING to steal from and defraud all of it's customers. I personally feel that It is more likely a matter of logistics then deceitful intent.

[imp522]

The bottom line is that they have full permission to post here and that those people may actually have legitimate complaints. I TOTALLY agree with that.
My only points are
1. Justice is better then revenge. I personally disagree with them in that I feel it is better to solve the logistics issues so that the company can get back on it's feet in terms of filling orders and doing it in a timely fashion. Simply running the company out of business in revenge (as they are advocating and encouraging as proven by the quotes I provided), I personally feel is not the way to go.
2. I disagree with them in that I think it is wrong to flat out accuse the company of TRYING to steal from and defraud all of it's customers. I personally feel that It is more likely a matter of logistics then deceitful intent.

As a company you need to communicate with your customers, it's been proven they don't. If a company needs to get back on it's feet cease taking orders for the time being, instead they run 50% off sales adding to their problems. While they may be advocating to run the company out of business take into account their frustration and silence from the said company.

Customers have had problems with the US branch and parent UK company, while they may not have set out to steal from people their lack of ability to fulfill orders and lack of communications to inquiry's to said orders. I do agree with you on the fact that they have logistic problems, but doesn't excuse any of their problem nor their ability to get things right in the 5+ years they have been having problems.

[EVIL INC]

Exactly, I feel that logistics are the issue and you are right that the "suits" need to become more business savvy in order to help them get on their feet as well.
As a counselor (job corps, dealing with inner city youth and large numbers of youth who are members of violent gangs) I have great experience dealing with people who have frustrations. In the terms I am used to dealing with people with frustrations, they want to go out and literally kill someone. My job is to convince them to control their anger and get them to work in a more positive fashion. In business terms, the people here are out to literally put the company out of business or "kill" them. i just feel that that is not the way to go.

1. The company has issues with logistics.- I think that the "worksite" or factory they are currently using is either simply not up to snuff or not large enough. Either moving it to a new location with a larger/more reliable workforce with easy access to transportation might be a way to go. This would be even better if they could move it to a place that could not only do that but be large enough and have enough office space to house customer service and other offices. If that place was in an inexpensive location where they would not have to pay the workforce near as much as they would in a larger city, so much the better.
2. Customer service.- Easily fixed. Hire someone who has more experience. I found that they can branch out into other areas then pure business to do this. Things they can keep in mind when hiring a new customer service manager is
A. As it is a gaming company, a gamer might be more empathetic towards customer complaints as well as more knowledgable about the product.
B. The person does not have to come from a customer service field. Heck, even a counselor can do customer service work as it is pretty much just helping people solve their problems and knowing how to find and use resources to do that.
3. The company has a history of having problems. They need to go about fixing that head first. They need to
A. Solve the problems
B. Get the knowledge that the problems have been solved out to the public. This includes admitting that they had the issues rather then trying to sweep them under the rug.
4. They need to stay on top of things after doing 1-3
Of course, that is just my personal view on it and I know of a perfect place for them to move operations to that has a ready made "factory" that is currently recently emptied, a large workforce recently laid off, rural area where the cost of living is low so the people do not need to be paid nearly as high as a more urban area but yet has great access to the major metropolitan areas in terms of transportation and delivery.

My only issue with the O.P. is their intent to try to actually put the company out of business rather then try to fix the issues they have with the company and their accusations that it is purposeful stealing and defrauding rather then any other issues.

[HarlequinZero]

Exactly, I feel that logistics are the issue and you are right that the "suits" need to become more business savvy in order to help them get on their feet as well.
As a counselor (job corps, dealing with inner city youth and large numbers of youth who are members of violent gangs) I have great experience dealing with people who have frustrations. In the terms I am used to dealing with people with frustrations, they want to go out and literally kill someone. My job is to convince them to control their anger and get them to work in a more positive fashion. In business terms, the people here are out to literally put the company out of business or "kill" them. i just feel that that is not the way to go.

1. The company has issues with logistics.- I think that the "worksite" or factory they are currently using is either simply not up to snuff or not large enough. Either moving it to a new location with a larger/more reliable workforce with easy access to transportation might be a way to go. This would be even better if they could move it to a place that could not only do that but be large enough and have enough office space to house customer service and other offices. If that place was in an inexpensive location where they would not have to pay the workforce near as much as they would in a larger city, so much the better.
2. Customer service.- Easily fixed. Hire someone who has more experience. I found that they can branch out into other areas then pure business to do this. Things they can keep in mind when hiring a new customer service manager is
A. As it is a gaming company, a gamer might be more empathetic towards customer complaints as well as more knowledgable about the product.
B. The person does not have to come from a customer service field. Heck, even a counselor can do customer service work as it is pretty much just helping people solve their problems and knowing how to find and use resources to do that.
3. The company has a history of having problems. They need to go about fixing that head first. They need to
A. Solve the problems
B. Get the knowledge that the problems have been solved out to the public. This includes admitting that they had the issues rather then trying to sweep them under the rug.
4. They need to stay on top of things after doing 1-3
Of course, that is just my personal view on it and I know of a perfect place for them to move operations to that has a ready made "factory" that is currently recently emptied, a large workforce recently laid off, rural area where the cost of living is low so the people do not need to be paid nearly as high as a more urban area but yet has great access to the major metropolitan areas in terms of transportation and delivery.

My only issue with the O.P. is their intent to try to actually put the company out of business rather then try to fix the issues they have with the company and their accusations that it is purposeful stealing and defrauding rather then any other issues.

And if the company refuses to even respond to it's users emails and phone calls how do you expect to get your advice to them?

[fitterpete]

Tell you what Evil.You send me a bunch of money.I won't send you any figs.We'll blame it on logistics and call it a day.
Maybe Black Tree needs to be shut down.Why should a business be allowed to stay open who rips off their customers.
If a trader on here ripped you off wouldn't you leave a neg ref so others would be warned? And if they kept doing it to others wouldn't you say they should be banned?

[EVIL INC]

Well, harlequin zero, I would not stop after a single attempt to contact them for starters.
Then, you use the chain of command. When you speak to someone on the phone and they try to give you the brush off, you ask to speak to a supervisor and keep working your way up the food chain until you reach someone who tells you what you want to hear.
Then, there is the idea of the squeaky wheel gets oiled. If you call them repeatedly day after day, chances are, you will either get a refund or your items mailed to you within a week. Give up after only a perfunctory message to them and they will assume that you dont care and because of that, they will put your case on the back burner and handle a more pressing situation such as "the annoying bugger who keeps calling".

You might notice in the links provided that there ARE many people who have no issues with them and are actually anxious to deal with them again. That makes the accusation that they are out to cheat everyone, have no intentions of ever actually mailing anything out ect a lie. Jumping from calling them once straight to "lets run them out of business doesnt make a lot of sense.

My advice, its only an idea and I dont care if they follow it or even see it. That means, I would only send them a single e-mail with no follow up if I attempted to contact them at all.

Petey, you are comparing apples and oranges. The examples you gave are not even near relevant. For example, Me handing you cash and walking away is just giving you money. This is especially so when I go into it with the knowledge that it is a gift and will never be returned. I would only do that if it was family or freind who really needed it and then only if I had it to spare.
If I dealt with a person who purposely ripped me off, then I would first actually try to make contact with the person rather then accuse them of trying to purposely ripped me off. If they did not return contact, I would make more then one attempt. Then, yes I would indeed leave a neg reference. Then rather then trying to get them banned, I would try to either get a refund or items needed. I would let the administration decide whether to ban them or not. As I am not a member of administration, I have no rights here whatsoever much less the right to order them about as though they were my own personal army. I would never dream of doing such a thing.

Now, like I have said, You may or may not agree with me and I dont really care if you do.
1. I personally feel that justice is better then revenge. Working to get a refund or items is better then shutting the company down in petty revenge.
2. I personally think that making the accusation that the company is out to bilk everyone is wrong. Especially when proof shows otherwise.
3. Making only a token attempt to contact them and then jumping straight to shutting them down is a bit of a jump and that steps should be taken along the way between the two extremes.

[fitterpete]

Again did you not read the links? There are plenty of people who have tried again and again to call and email them.One guy said he called every week for 3 months.They won't respond.
and my example is exactly on target.
I tell you I will sell you figures.You give me money.I don't send figures or respond to you anymore.
They ARE letting the administration handle it, that's why they are going to the Government.It's like the admins but for the real world.
well like others on Bartertown I'm tired of arguing with you so I'm done here.I'm beginning to think you are just trying to make people angry.

[EVIL INC]

yes, I have indeed read the links. You might want to try that yourself. In them, you will see that there ARE indeed people who have gotten their order, gotten them in a timely manner, had mistakes easily fixed with extras thrown in to apologize for the mistakes. Not one person though has provided proof of their orders being PURPOSELY not sent out or that BTD PURPOSELY stole their money. They have not even given any evidence that they made more then one attempt to contact the company before jumping straight to trying to put them out of business. The guy you said called every week, how many times a day did he call? How many days of each week did he call? Did he talk to the first person who picked up a phone or did he try to work his way up the food chain? When he talked to someone on the phone, did he speak in a professional manner or did he start screaming obscenities into the phone until they were forced to hang up?

Your examples are way off the mark and not even relevant. Try to come up with some that pertain to the issue at hand.

Going to the government and asking for help is a good route to go. Taking into into your own hands in a vigilante manner as the o.p. and others supporting him are suggestion, I personally feel is not the way to go.

If having an opinion and feeling that I have a right to express it in a manner that is respectful to everyone allowing for disagreements and the rights of others to express theirs angers you, then perhaps you really do not have a place in this courteous discussion.

[govannon]

Well, harlequin zero, I would not stop after a single attempt to contact them for starters.
Then, you use the chain of command. When you speak to someone on the phone and they try to give you the brush off, you ask to speak to a supervisor and keep working your way up the food chain until you reach someone who tells you what you want to hear.
Then, there is the idea of the squeaky wheel gets oiled. If you call them repeatedly day after day, chances are, you will either get a refund or your items mailed to you within a week. Give up after only a perfunctory message to them and they will assume that you dont care and because of that, they will put your case on the back burner and handle a more pressing situation such as "the annoying bugger who keeps calling".

If I make an order and pay for that order, why should I have to keep making calls to get the order shipped out to me? This sounds like more that just a rare problem. If it has taken somebody over a year to get an order, then they have no idea the proper way to run a business and need to be run out of business.

George

[fitterpete]

I apologize, I did not realize you were mildly <not smart>.

[EVIL INC]

You are right in that they need to learn to run their business better. This means changes in administration to start with. It appears to be more then just an isolated incident. That means that it is more then just the administration that needs working on. If they dont, they will run themselves out of business.
But I disagree in that I dont think the company is beyond redemption. They CAN work on the issues and solve them and turn themselves about. After all, Games Workshop had such issues in their very early years and they have turned themselves about to not only be one of the biggest and most successful names in the industry but also a byword for quality customer service.
I also disagree in customers becoming vigilantes and trying to go about putting the company out of business themselves rather then following established channels of addressing issues such as this.

@ petey, we are having a civil discussion here. Trolling is not really welcome.

[Adunaphel]

Too funny.

[govannon]

You are right in that they need to learn to run their business better. This means changes in administration to start with. It appears to be more then just an isolated incident. That means that it is more then just the administration that needs working on. If they dont, they will run themselves out of business.
But I disagree in that I dont think the company is beyond redemption. They CAN work on the issues and solve them and turn themselves about. After all, Games Workshop had such issues in their very early years and they have turned themselves about to not only be one of the biggest and most successful names in the industry but also a byword for quality customer service.
I also disagree in customers becoming vigilantes and trying to go about putting the company out of business themselves rather then following established channels of addressing issues such as this.

@ petey, we are having a civil discussion here. Trolling is not really welcome.

Sounds like this has been going on for awhile. How long would you give them to turn things around? How many people must lose money before it is enough?

I have been dealing with GW since 1992 and I have never had any problems that was not corrected with a phone call or 2.

[porkuslime]

This discussion has now been split off from the main Black Tree Designs post.

As was mentioned in the original post by ValhallanSurfer

I have received permission to post this from three Administrators. Per their request, if you take exception to this being posted in the Bartertown forums, you should not address it in this thread, but should send a PM copied to Linrandir, Porkuslime and MagickalMemories listing your complaints.

And since this has now taken such a radical divergence from that basic request, it has earned it's own area.

Carry on ranting.

Warnings dispense to those who failed to respect that request.

-Porkuslime