Random Rant

[Ironhide]

Report denied. Starslayer's is stating his opinion in a different thread on a different topic of discussion.

[EVIL INC]

New report sent.

[porkuslime]

Well.. with that attitude, don't be suprised that people might have a hard time taking you seriously or giving you the References you feel you deserve., EI..

Report under review.

-P

[EVIL INC]

I apologize. I should know better then to assume that everyone would think helping others was a good thing and I should not encourage others to do the same.
That is why I only asked that people at least show SOME kind of appreciation when someone goes out of their way to selflessly help them out. No one is asking for nobel prizes or anything like that. Just enough to help encourage them to continue helping others. I mean, if you get spit in the face enough times for trying to be nice, you start to stop wanting to help others. My own references? PAH!, I care nought for them as I rely on integrity and honor to carry me over. People I trade with know I am honest and am even known as the guy who puts extra bits in so that is enough for me and the good feelings mean much more to me then a "reference".
As you can see, I am not talking about myself or any of the deals others have brought up, I am looking at the big picture of the site as a whole. After all, which site would you rather frequent the one known for people getting along and making amicable trades as well as gamers helping gamers out,or the one known as the site of cutthroat traders out to pull a fast one on others and no one helps anyone else out ever? That is why I made the thread. To try to get people to make it more like the former.
Porkuslime, I sent a private message to Linrandir about the private message harassment. Is there a way to set it so they can be directly reported the way the public messages can?

[Stanislav]

You may rely on "integrity and honor" to carry you over, but without the references...who is carrying your "integrity and honor"?

The ITL, with all of it's flaws, is still an awesome tool for reporting good and bad traders. And frankly, even knowing it is not a perfect system, I and many other traders here on Bartertown and OTHER sites, rely on it.

There are some other sites, but spend your energy digging through some facts on them...I really don't feel like Bartertown is a Cutthroat environment, unless you have done something wrong to one of it's members. Where else will you will find a site with the longevity of this place and staff members who contribute multiple hours daily for free without asking for anything in return (except for advertisers) so that there is an open place to trade unwanted game stuff?

I mean, come on. If you want to foster "good will towards men", why mess with the system as it is? Minor tweaks and such are bound to happen as anything evolves, but overall...it's pretty good as it is. Sure there are some bad apples, but it's just a matter of time before they are culled through their own actions.

Sorry, just my opinion. However, like many that have spoken up here, been around for a while and I would think from someone who has seen the evolution of the site...things just keep getting better.

[EVIL INC]

Your right, the site is good. As long as I have been around, it has gotten better as a whole. But keeping a site a "good one" takes effort and it is all too easy to become complacent over time and forget to "be polite". A reminder of that on occasion does not detract from the site at all and the ones giving the reminder should not be attacked for going out on a limb to try to help keep the site as good of a place as it is. I have never once done anything "bad" to any member here but have seen some cutthroat people. Of course, I may have just had some bad luck in coming across some of the small minority. I will say though that for every one I have come across, I have come across 10 who made up for them by being great people so no, I am not saying that bartertown is a cutthroat place as a whole. But why go out of your way to try to make it one? (not anyone in particular of course).
Yes, I do rely on integrity and honor. That is reflected in my references. Even more so, it is reflected in how the people I trade with feel about me. Those good feelings mean more to me then typed words. The ones I deal with know how great I communicate in deals, how I always pop in extra bits just for fun and am prompt in shipping and payment. That is what is important to me.
I dont know what an itl is but if it is the way to make bad trader reports here, then it seems like it works ok to me. I would have no issue with it at all as I actually like the format but thats a totally different topic altogether.
There is nothing wrong with the site. Thats why I want to keep it as it is.

[Adunaphel]

In other words, I implore you as members to give feedback for gifts as well as trades and sales.

In my opinion, this is not going to happen. Nor should it. I have been on both ends of the "pay-it-forward" transaction. When I send something to another trader to help them out I do NOT expect a reference. I don't even ask for it. I have sometimes gotten references and sometimes not. It doesn't matter. PIF's are about something completely different than "building" a good reputation here. You want to help somebody out, then help them out. I agree that it was probably wrong for someone to complain about a freebie, but there are easy ways to deal with that. Just tell them to either throw it away (it was free for them anyway) or send it back to you. If it really upsets you, add them to your DNT list. End of story.

As for the "it's a deal" problem, you might want to put together a final PM that reiterates your trade in a complete form. State what you are getting and what your trade partner is getting. And addresses (paypal account also if you need it). Then at the end of a grocery style itemized list, ask POINTEDLY if you "have a finalized deal". That should help with a lot of the ambiguities in your trades. There is an official discussion going on on another thread about just this problem. I think it will be tough to have a hard and fast rule for this (some traders are more freeform than others), but anything that helps... helps.

I have found that the itemized list containing details about what you are getting and sending helps immensely with getting deals DONE and sometimes more importantly with clearing up MOST of the confusion. It still happens, but it should cut it down in your trades.

As for all these "report sent" posts, you might want to relax a little. I think that Bartertown is very much a site that promotes a helpful, positive place to trade. As Stanislav said, there are bad apples. They will weed themselves out over time. There are others that you won't agree with. It's OK. There is room for a myriad of viewpoints. You shouldn't stay upset because you don't agree with another trader or that the admin's didn't agree with your point of view. Move on.

Karl

[porkuslime]

ITL is (I think) an acronym for Internet Trade Level... something that was on the OOP version of Bartertown. When the switch was made to PHBB software and we got the Reference system, people just kept using "ITL" to represent it.

[EVIL INC]

Adunaphel, I sent you a pm. I have moved on and it is no longer an issue with me. Although from the looks of some of the other's posts, they have apparently not. the PiF is not about building reputations at all. I have built my own impeccable rep by my trades and how I act and treat others. The PiF should be about helping others rather then spitting in the face of the one paying forward to you. If you do that enough times to people, they will begin to wonder why they do it when it is apparently not wanted or spurned. At least have the grace to accept the PiF and not pass it on so that the one paying to you isnt left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Thanks for the info on ITL. I had not known what it was. I like having reference section we have here. I think the "Good Neutral, bad" only is rather limiting though. I would rather have a scale of one to ten or even a one to five scale. That would allow for more leeway and variability. Of course that would take a lot of work (I assume) to implement and translate over from old references (I am SURE that would be a huge task). So I am not even going to ask about that because if I did, you guys would tar and feather me and run me out of town on a rail.

[Stanislav]

ITL is (I think) an acronym for Internet Trade Level... something that was on the OOP version of Bartertown. When the switch was made to PHBB software and we got the Reference system, people just kept using "ITL" to represent it.

Absolutely correct Pork, forgot to update my Bartertownese.

@OP

It's very common on here not to agree with someone's opinions. There are several members that I have set to "ignore" because it just really gets me how pompous they can be. However, as with any "melting pot", it's just a given. Even if I don't like their internet persona, it's something that everyone has to deal with. Most of the one's I don't like, don't like me either. It's all give and take.

Wanting to be a good guy on here, there is nothing that can be said against it, it does make the site better. However, it is kind of a personal code of chivalry. Not everyone will feel the same, but it is not a reason to quit being the Knight in Shining Armor. If you let your personal code fall to the ground, then there is one less good guy amongst a sea of apathetics and a few bad apples.

[Ironhide]

First, there is no rule that states you MUST leave feedback. It's the polite and correct thing to do, but it is not a rule.

Second, you kind of defeat the purpose of Paying-it-Forward if you expect a good reference in return.

Third, as far as "deals" go; don't ever assume anything, get it in writing. If this means spelling out all facets of the deal, then so be it.

[JohnHwangBT]

Feedback? I practice lower FB leaves first, but don't really care. I rarely leave first, so no biggie.

"Sounds good" is contractually binding to a well-defined offer.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

1. No feedback. There have been a few individuals who have been great. I mean great in that they were generous and sent me things I needed without asking for anything at all in return. You can BET I gave them glowing feedback. This is because even though there was no actual "trade" or "sale", they went out of their way and put cash into postage to help another gamer out. However, when I sent someone something for free, I get complaints and no feedback at all. The item sent was exactly as I described and I took pains to make sure it took no damage in transit.
In other words, I implore you as members to give feedback for gifts as well as trades and sales.

Did you ever watch "The Princess Bride"?

Life is pain.

It sucks to not have a Reference left, for big trades and for small ones. You'll feel it more than, say Porkuslime, at your current number of refs (14). I feel it when it happens (you know who you are!). But there's nothing to be done about it. Though the community turns on refs, some members, like those of any other community, are better citizens than others.

If you sent one something for free, and they complained...well, I guess that's the last time you'll trade with that person, isn't it?

Leaving refs for gifts is dicey; refs are there largely to establish TRUSTWORTHINESS. They show that members have followed through in exchanges. What burden of trust is there on someone sending a gift? Yes, they might be generous. That is a very minor second next to whether or not they are trustworthy.

And, as has been discussed ad nauseum, a "gift" is something for nothing; a gift for a ref isn't really a gift anymore.

That is why I only asked that people at least show SOME kind of appreciation when someone goes out of their way to selflessly help them out.

They should say thanks. But this is Bartertown, not Freecycle.

My own references? PAH!, I care nought for them as I rely on integrity and honor to carry me over. People I trade with know I am honest and am even known as the guy who puts extra bits in so that is enough for me and the good feelings mean much more to me then a "reference".

So you're upset that people don't leave references...but you don't really care about references?

And how do those people know you are honest, or that you are a person of integrity and honor? This is the Internet, home of 50 year old fat virgins posing as 16 year old Britney Spears lookalikes.

References are your credentials 'round here. You need them. I need them. Even Porkuslime needs them. They are history and litany. You should (and you clearly do) care about them, because they form a composite of your identity here. But that identity is as a trader, not a humanitarian. You want to memorialize someone's fuzzy feelings? Look no further than the Good Trader Misc Information. That's exactly the sort of message that belongs there. And it would be nice to read something there that DIDN'T belong in the references section.

2. Purposely using legal wordage. For example, if you agree to a trade, follow through with it. Dont agree to a trade using the phrase, "yes, its doable" or "sounds good to me" or other positive phrases that imply or say you are agreeing to a trade and then back out claiming "I did not use the actual words, yes we have an official trade" and then officially not having to follow through with your side of the bargain. Because then, you are leaving someone high and dry having already sent you an item to never get it back or what your part of the agreed trade was sent to them or at the least having taken the time and cash to package up the items to never be sent.

At a certain point, as a trader and, frankly, a human being, you have to take responsibility for looking after yourself.

If you think that someone is using "legal wordage" (I think you mean the exact opposite of that, btw), then lay it out for them:

Them: Sounds good.
You: If you agree to this deal, my ABC for your XYX, then please quote this message, send it back to me, and indicate "Agreed" at the very top. Thanks!

99% of people who say "sounds good" are being casual about saying yes. Like me. I say it pretty regularly. I mean it. It's a colloquialism. And, maybe, it's a shield for some poor traders who BO of a deal. Maybe. Sometimes.

If you're worried about it, push for the clear and direct "Yes". No legit trader is going to hide from that.

[starslayer]

Here is some legal wordage for you:
Dictionary defintion- Harass- to annoy repeatedly.
Look it up.

One phone call is not "harassment. One arguement or shouting match is not "harassment".
One private message is not "harassment". Consult an attorney.

You should try to keep an open mind with people who dont agree with everything you say. You come off with an "on a high horse", "im better than you" attitude.

Since you have some kind of personal problem with me- I will refrain from replying to any of your public posts again. Nor will i send you any private messages. So post what you will.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

Porkuslime, I sent a private message to Linrandir about the private message harassment. Is there a way to set it so they can be directly reported the way the public messages can?

Since you have some kind of personal problem with me- I will refrain from replying to any of your public posts again. Nor will i send you any private messages. So post what you will.

And, gentlemen, that is the end of that. This thread is not about "harassment", however it is defined, so please keep it on topic from here on out.