Its my model and I'll do what I want to.

[EVIL INC]

I work hard for my money at a job that I am VERY good at. I was brought up to believe that if your going to do something, you might as well do it right. If you are going to accept a job or enter a job field, you should not just go through the motions. You should excel at it.
In my spare time, one of the things I like to do is wargame and participate in all the aspects that come with the hobby. This includes building and designing armies. I always have had an active imagination in terms of gaming (comes as a result of being a DM I suppose, and like a job, excel at it to be the best in the region) and simply do not like being shackled to a particular color scheme or premade set army. Thats why I have always designed my own chapters, guard home worlds and chaos legions. For example, I once had a loyalist chapter of marines where I kitbashed rtb01s and skeletons (I was MUCH younger then). I later designed my own chaos legion and guard home world.
I have seen many others do similar things. For example, I have seen Hello Kitty marines, civil war guard, rasta guard and even pipe cleaner bloodletters. While I may often shake my head and personally feel that something does not "fit" into the imagery of the game, I always respect the fact that the people paid for their models and have the right to pain/convert them as they please. Heck, if they want to fork over $55.00 for a land raider, build it, stuff it full or marshmallows, melt chocolate over it and then eat the whole mess I will support their right to do so. I might laugh at them but I will support their right.

Of course, if someone does not want to play someone for whatever reason, bad breath, B.O. or even if they feel insulted over a army painted in the colors of a real life army they disagree with politically, I support their right to decline a game. On that issue, I disagree with those (and I have seen a LOT online) who take the right to decline a game a step further then is needed and try to force their opponents (or even random people online) to paint and convert their armies to their standards rather then the standards of the ones who forked over the cash for the models. Why is it that so many people do their best to force others to paint/convert their armies in ways that the owners do not want to?

[MagickalMemories]

I agree.
If it's your army/model/terrain/whatever, you have the right to paint or assemble it in any way you want. Even if that includes NOT painting it.
Painting elitists... I just don't get them.

Why they do it is beyond me. I'm pretty good about understanding where other people are coming from. There are always going to be individuals who I just *don't get,* and these people rank among them.
I've seen all kinds of threads where those people justify their reasons, but they just never make sense or seem *right* to me.

I think the one example you used that I disagree with was the "pipe cleaner" models.
Is this them?


Presuming so:

While I'm highly amused and entertained by them, I would have *in game* problems with them due to unfair LOS issues.
If my opponent was generous about LOS, I'd be less annoyed, but I think those might just be my "line." At least a messed up/weird conversion or paint job is an actual model. These thing's are just kitchen tools and googly-eyes on a GW base.

Eric

[porkuslime]

I would LOVE to play against that army and take pics. Beyond that, it runs for me as a "cutsey" army. I think the Elmo Dread gets me.

Battle after battle after battle, and I would not be too happy. Display army, and done to make a point... but not your "daily" or "weekly" force please god.

[Ironhide]

I think the one example you used that I disagree with was the "pipe cleaner" models.
Is this them?



Eric

That is soooo unoriginal! He could have at least come up with better words. Maybe have even created one whole sentence out of the whole army! BOORRRING!

Could have been way cooler if he had used Benderoos!

[/sarcasm]

[don_mondo]

Some others I've seen over the years:

'Mars Attacks' Space marines
Hockey team Space Marines, display board was a hockey rink
Skeleton Marines (Evil, were you ever at a Baltimore GT? If so, maybe they were yours)
Wizard of Oz Chaos army
my own 1st Lustrian (Lizardmen) IG
And lots of other IG/SM armies converted up from Fantasy models

[EVIL INC]

Thats the one. Never thought of the los issue. My mind was seeing them always having to be lined up a certain way in order for the words to be read and wondering about misslpelling when they were killed.

[reegsk]

EI, I would agree with you as a hobbyist. I can appreciate the creativity that people put into their armies, even something like pipe cleaner "models". I think people should get creative with their models, and encourage them to do so. When I worked for GW, I would tell a player thinking about playing Orks, for example, that orks are generally green, but they could paint them however they wished. . .pink, red, blue, yellow. . .whatever! And I know exactly what you're talking about, too. A guy I used to play with really loved the look of Grey Knight Terminators, and wanted to convert some into Chaos Terminators. You would not believe the grief he took. "You can't corrupt Grey Knights." "Those can't be Chaos Terminators." And so on. But looking at them, what else could they be? They were models in terminator armor, with chaos symbols all over them, in the midst of a chaos army. Hell, he even converted some to have reaper autocannons. And, as you pointed out, the dude shelled out $10 a model for a unit of ten, so all the power to him to do whatever he wanted.

On the other hand, it has to be kept within reason. As a regular TO and club president, I have to constantly weigh right to creativity versus ease of playability. While something like a pipecleaner, Elmo-themed chaos army may be a cutesy gimmick, how practical is it for tournament play? What if someone makes a bunch of creative conversions that just makes their army too darn complicated? What if I'm a racist, and I want to include some racist iconography into my army? Another example, this one from my own personal experience, was a Slaanesh chariot scratch built to look like the car from the Ambiguously Gay Duo (the SNL animated short), with the two dudes riding in it. Now, outside of a few WYSIWYG issues, you have a more important one -- in the cartoon, and in the conversion, the car is shaped to look like a penis. In a family-friendly store, should that be allowed?

My point is that creativity is great. It's a HUGE part of the hobby and I encourage people to indulge as often as I can. But a lot of times people don't consider what impact their "creativity" will have on those around them. The above example of the chariot was fine in the setting the hobbyist was coming from, where everyone was 18+, and people either didn't have kids or never brought them. But they couldn't understand why we, who have a conscript program that's sixteen and under and have regular underage visitors in the store, wouldn't allow it. So while on the one hand, I applaud and encourage creativity, but on the other, I have to remind people to consider how their creativity may be taken by others, whether confusing or offensive. If it's just you and your friends, or you and your gaming group and everyone's cool with it, awesome. But as soon as you're going to bring that outside of your circle, you have to consider how people who don't know you could take it.

[Ironhide]

Bottomline: They are your models, and you can do with them what you want. However, it is also you opponents pejorative to NOT play against you because he doesn't like the way your army is modeled.

[reegsk]

Bottomline: They are your models, and you can do with them what you want. However, it is also you opponents pejorative to NOT play against you because he doesn't like the way your army is modeled.

QFT. As a hobbyist, I don't care what you do to your models, because I can choose whether or not to play against you. As a TO, who has to make unpopular decisions, you have to consider the community as a whole.

[JohnHwangBT]

In a tournament setting, I would not be happy about the pipe cleaner army.

Otherwise, go for it!

[EVIL INC]

I had to laugh. One of MY chaos termies is based on a grey knight termy.
I gotta agree to a degree what you mean. When painting/converting, some attention should be paid to "playability" and at least SOME sort of wysiwyg should be used. For example, (yes, I know dead horse here) a while back, we had people tossing a hissy fit because someone wanted to use space wolf models to create a werewolf based blood angel army. Personally, I disagreed with them and felt that as the wargear and armor was the same, they would look great. Paint them up to suit and play away. Then again look at some of John Blanches models. I LOVE his artwork and feel that he puts a LOT of work and creativity into his models and they look great as "showpieces". As an opponent, I would need to be reminded too often of what was what.
If you are going to convert and use something that is not "normal" in a "playing" army, I would prefer that it be uniform at least. For example, if a player liked the look of the drum fed shootas and wanted to use them to represent all the bolt guns in a marine army, I would expect to see ALL the bolters in said army to be based on the same shoota model. If they wanted to have a mishmash of different guns representing bolters in a for show army just to look at, no problems there either.
I notice you mentioned the rascist army situation. I didnt want to go that far but that is exactly what I was thinking of when I mentioned "political views" in my earlier example. I totally agree that if someone doesnt want to play someone else because of how their army is painted/converted, that that is their right. I just dont feel that they should try to FORCE the person who's army they disagree with to change it to suit their needs instead of the owner's. But that is what I have been seeing online. It may be the whole internet bully thing or ther keyboard power tripper. In real life, I'm sure that it would likely not be the case. I was belittled here because my chaos army has conversions, uses icons from a wide variety of different "official" legions while not actually BEING any of them, using grey knight termy as a chaos termy and so forth. However, in actual playing with other people face to face, I have ONLY gotten compliments (well not all people appreciate the amythyst and gold paint jobs calling my army the purple pansies or worse ) but they have all appreciated the work put into it and the ingenuity on conversions (I have had a LOT of my stuff copied in other armies as they took my ideas to incorporate into their's.

I also have to agree with the point of having respect for your fellow players. I would have issues with a kkk themed guard army. Not in terms of artwork or creativity but in terms of respecting your opponants and gaming venue. A store doesnt wanna have that sort of rep. I have also seen a slannesh army that was literally pornographic in terms of phallises and vaginas scylpted onto everything (and they guy was VERY detailed and good at it. you would almost have thought he was a porno sculpter) and was shocked when he brought it into a store for a tourney. That sort of army is (to me anyways) a "play at home" army.

[getupandgo]

Holy *edit*!

That army is amazing... I would gladly play against it.

This is all about having a good time, and if you can't have a good time playing that army, I don't know what to tell you.

I agree.
If it's your army/model/terrain/whatever, you have the right to paint or assemble it in any way you want. Even if that includes NOT painting it.
Painting elitists... I just don't get them.

Why they do it is beyond me. I'm pretty good about understanding where other people are coming from. There are always going to be individuals who I just *don't get,* and these people rank among them.
I've seen all kinds of threads where those people justify their reasons, but they just never make sense or seem *right* to me.

I think the one example you used that I disagree with was the "pipe cleaner" models.
Is this them?


Presuming so:

While I'm highly amused and entertained by them, I would have *in game* problems with them due to unfair LOS issues.
If my opponent was generous about LOS, I'd be less annoyed, but I think those might just be my "line." At least a messed up/weird conversion or paint job is an actual model. These thing's are just kitchen tools and googly-eyes on a GW base.

Eric

[MagickalMemories]

Holy *edit*!

That army is amazing... I would gladly play against it.

This is all about having a good time, and if you can't have a good time playing that army, I don't know what to tell you.

guag?
Is that YOUR army, by chance?

LOL

Like I said; in a local, "for fun" game, it would be 'all good.'
I'd have issues in a tourney setting.


Eric

[Forsaken Poptart]

First thought- on the pipe-cleaner army: It could also become a Slaanesh army quite easily; just rearrange the squads to say "boob"

2nd thought- overall, I agree that fun theme armies are just that- fun. They're not meant for competitive play, and the person creating the army should know this. That said, I personally like the armies I play against to be painted, or at least part of the way there, but these are hardly deal-breakers when it comes to getting games in!