8th Edition Review

[Asif Chaudhry]

Yeah, but Dwarves got boned in combat. Gee, I finally get a charge in first & still strike last??!! No awesome super spells either. Im sure movement will be limited too. Dwarves will have drawbacks.

You already know the drawback is that Dwarves are going be boring as all get out as they'll only have one good build (gunline) and you'll have to play it until the end of eternity.

Well, the new rules arent giving alot of options other than a gunline or anvil list are they??

I wouldn't be so certain about that - after all, their charge range DID get increased from 6" to (on average) 10.5" (3" + 2d6).

Even against 50 Elvish spearmen, give me a big whack of Iron Breakers, and if there is a magic banner rune that gives a unit +1 armor save, suddenly you have high WS, T4 guys, with a 2+ armor save, all armed with great weapons and high leadership. Doesn't sound quite so terrible to me.

Dwarves will always have SOME shooting going on, but with the new reform rules, I could see them becoming a very feared and highly mobile close combat force on the battlefield. Iron Breakers, Long beards, some Miners for surprise rear assaults, Slayers for unbreakable "tarpit" units to help protect flanks.

Hell, a well placed Gyrocopter with a Steam cannon template could totally soften up an enemy horde block before the Dwarf infantry go in to finish the job.

Yeah - if I ever get a chance to do some army swapping with my friend, I might borrow his army book and make a "WoC" style dwarf list, except with some good shooting support. Gyros, cannons for smashing enemy artillery and warmachine into flinders, maybe some handgunners, and the rest as rock hard infantry.

[Norseman]

Yeah I do think the dwarf gunline is going to be a problem for most lists.

I just do not think most players have enough experience to been prepared to face an onslaught of shooting, strong enough to win games.

7ths gunline dwarves was strong and could win a few games but it wasn't game changing and wasn't anything close to a sure thing. Has 8th's changes put it over the top? I do not know for sure, but I don't think so. It will be strong but not a game breaker. The player will have to play it right. I do not think it will be a sure thing.

Historically I think shooty armies have been weak overall. You just didn't kill enough. I think they had to strengthen shooting because with the longer charge ranges you will not get to shoot as much.

For you mathhammer junkies
BS3 needs 4s LR needs 5s
Even with 80 shots (of my nasty Dwarf army from the other thread)
80x1/3=27 hits
Str4 on typical TGH 3 needs 3s
27x2/3=18 kills
For close range it goes to 27 kills
Impressive but is it enough? For HE proabably...Skaven and VC proabably not.
Can the Warmachines throw them over the top? If you are lucky I guess, but I still do not think it is a sure thing.

My last ed's Skaven book was as close as I could make to the proverbial "shooty army from hell", a competitive shooting army that would regularly win games against all other armies. Then I face my friends VC and only won one game out of about 20. I could kill the armor and I could kill the horde, but I couldn't handle the respawn. However the list was not all just shooty like the dwarves, I had a mix of magic and shooty.
Basic load out was 4 ratling guns, 20 jezzails, 1 Warp Cannon, 4 Engineers (damage dealers), not to mention the clan rats storm vermin and rat ogres that was there to soak up damage. It doesn't look like much but the mix of shooting and magic was enough to table armies before they got across the board. The HtH wasn't all that bad either. The reason this list was so good, was, i didn't generally have to roll to hit with the magic and the ratling guns it was all high str random auto hits. The Jezzails were usually in close range, and hit like a ton of bricks. It's always the same problem its too dang hard to HIT with ranged. This skaven army type has been destroyed by the new army book, I was really disappointed with the new skaven army book until I seen 8th ed rules. Now I am ecstatic, but I will definitely have to go a different way with the army. For Skaven anyways HtH is where there strengths lye.

I am going to have to try this shooty Dwarf army out this weekend.

[starslayer]

Do you get to reroll misses "to hit" if your WS is higher than your opponents? I dont understand why the High Elf Spearmen block would get to reroll misses. Anyone?

[Norseman]

If you have Always Strike First and your INT is the same or higher. You are striking so fast that you get to reroll you to hit rolls.

[starslayer]

If you have Always Strike First and your INT is the same or higher. You are striking so fast that you get to reroll you to hit rolls.

Thank you Norseman!! Very nice for High Elves. Not much for anyone else.

[HarlequinZero]

Actually, I've been thinking about it, and I think Dark Elves could wind up being even more ridiculous as far as gun lines go. Firing all those repeating crossbows and bolt throwers... And they have the advantage of fast cav and scouts that ALSO have repeating crossbows. Combined with the Dark Elves ability to pump out magic support by sacrificing models from that one spear or corsair horde... Hmm... I might have to play around with my Dark Elves.

[Norseman]

OMG this is disgusting...

5 x 20 DE Xbowmen C/M/S
4 DE Repeater Bolt Thrower
2x 5 Dark Rider M /XBow
2 Lvl 2 Sorcerous
2004 points cut a xbow and your under 2k

Thats 244 shots a turn not including magic. NASTY!!!

Looks like I need more DE xbow

[craasher]

OMG this is disgusting...

5 x 20 DE Xbowmen C/M/S
4 DE Repeater Bolt Thrower
2x 5 Dark Rider M /XBow
2 Lvl 2 Sorcerous
2004 points cut a xbow and your under 2k

Thats 244 shots a turn not including magic. NASTY!!!

Looks like I need more DE xbow

There is one very obvious downside to that list though that I'm surprised no one has seen it yet.........


You would have to concede the game by the third turn from the severe carpal tunnel you would develop rolling all those dice.

[starslayer]

OMG this is disgusting...

5 x 20 DE Xbowmen C/M/S
4 DE Repeater Bolt Thrower
2x 5 Dark Rider M /XBow
2 Lvl 2 Sorcerous
2004 points cut a xbow and your under 2k

Thats 244 shots a turn not including magic. NASTY!!!

Looks like I need more DE xbow

Couldnt you do that in 7th edition too?

[Asif Chaudhry]

OMG this is disgusting...

5 x 20 DE Xbowmen C/M/S
4 DE Repeater Bolt Thrower
2x 5 Dark Rider M /XBow
2 Lvl 2 Sorcerous
2004 points cut a xbow and your under 2k

Thats 244 shots a turn not including magic. NASTY!!!

Looks like I need more DE xbow

Couldnt you do that in 7th edition too?

You COULD - but it wouldn't be nearly as effective because:

1.) Without 2 ranks firing all the time, you would have to line up 20 wide x 1 deep. So for units on the ends of the line, you would inevitably have guys out of 90 degree front arc LoS. In 8th, you can line up 10 wide and still fire all 20 guys, thus allowing you to concentrate fire against enemy units. Plus, with the more compact unit size, you won't have LoS/arc of fire issues nearly as often.

2.) With T 7 or higher, your repeater shots just "bounced" off the target. Now, if you throw a bucket of dice, 1 in every 6 of those will be a wound that the other guy has a chance to fail an armor save on (because a 6 always wounds in shooting now). See earlier in this thread about my "Warhammer FB = Parcheesi" theory.

3.) In 7th, if the other guy got the charge on you, you were dead meat as the DE (or any weedy shooty unit for that matter), because the chargers struck first. NOW - besides the stand and shoot, if the charger has a lower Initiative, the DE's get to strike first and get some whacks in. If you do spear/Xbow guys, you'll have fewer guys BUT they'll all get to re-roll their hits as well (ASF + higher init = reroll, according to Norse).

DE, HE, Dwarves, Empire, Skaven, Goblins - they can all go more predominantly shooty and have much greater success than before. Whether this is good for the game or not remains to be seen.

[starslayer]

DE, HE, Dwarves, Empire, Skaven, Goblins - they can all go more predominantly shooty and have much greater success than before. Whether this is good for the game or not remains to be seen.

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I was thinking the same thing. Many armies can make a crazy gunline. Thanks Asif.

[Ironhide]

Okay, think I may have found the equalizer. Is it true that units can move freely through terrain now?

[Asif Chaudhry]

Okay, think I may have found the equalizer. Is it true that units can move freely through terrain now?

"Supposedly". Ask Norse/Anara.

However, before getting too excited Ironhide, remember that 8th ed terrain is "Alive.....A-LIVE!!!" 5/6ths of the time.

In the case of forests, I believe 2 of 6 rolls involve getting man-eating woods that do hits if a unit ends its movement within the terrain feature. And I think some of the river choices burn you with acidic blood (or if you're a daemon/evil guy, flush you with angelic purity ).

But yeah, being able to not have your move halved by terrain, while it still blocks shooting LoS, should help the charge-ier armies out there.

[Norseman]

There is no halfed moving for moving through terrain. Some you can march through some you can't. Most you cant. Depending on what it is you can get buff or damage spells. You may have to take dangerous terrain tests. Alot of cool little things can happen.

I think it adds fun and flavor.
For instance:
You start your turn within 6" of an alter of blood it gives you frenzy, you charge the nearest enemy that is on the opposite side of a river of light. You get hit with the #6(randomly generated) spell, because you touched the river, and that gives you first strike plus another attack You now have 3 attacks with ASF with Goblins, just because of terrain.

[Ironhide]

I heard the "special" terrain was optional.