GW's 2-year anniversary...By Neal Catapano @ WarStore

[Loaf32]

Yeah, insidius, the price of tin did rise. The thing is, though, that Old Glory miniatures had to institue a price increase for that and then differed from GW by *gasp* lowering the price when they got a more reliable seller and the price of tin dropped. GW kept that same tin-influenced price, and then complemented it with another increase.


-Loaf

P.S. I agree with atacam. Play Rackham games! They're worth it.

[vesrian]

In their credit, the price of tin has gone up dramatically since China stopped exporting it (they are, or were our major supplier of tin in the world), so i can undertsand the price hike on metals, but plastics, too?

Wasn't that a bit over a year ago that the tin prices jumped? And wasn't that the reason they gave for last year's price increase?

On another note, does anyone happen to have any reliable information abut the plastic mold making process? I've been curious about how the requirements for capturing fine detail makes the process differ from other commercial casting. In particular, the mold fabrication and what limits the lifespan of the molds.

[insidius]

In their credit, the price of tin has gone up dramatically since China stopped exporting it (they are, or were our major supplier of tin in the world), so i can undertsand the price hike on metals, but plastics, too?

Wasn't that a bit over a year ago that the tin prices jumped? And wasn't that the reason they gave for last year's price increase?

On another note, does anyone happen to have any reliable information abut the plastic mold making process? I've been curious about how the requirements for capturing fine detail makes the process differ from other commercial casting. In particular, the mold fabrication and what limits the lifespan of the molds.

lol, look guys, I'm not defending them by any means. I'm simply playing devils advocate here. GW's reign of terror will end soon enough. I haven't bought anything from them since I found Bartertown. Obviously we're in the same boat here.

The only way to show them our dissatisfaction is to stop buying from them.

[Linrandir]

On another note, does anyone happen to have any reliable information abut the plastic mold making process? I've been curious about how the requirements for capturing fine detail makes the process differ from other commercial casting. In particular, the mold fabrication and what limits the lifespan of the molds.

Argh. I'll hunt down the answer for you tomorrow.

[OmniJackal]

Lol Lin's on a mission

[MagickalMemories]

Lin says:

Argh. I'll hunt down the answer for you tomorrow.

Okay, Lin. I'll check for it tomorrow. If it's not here, you're getting a negative reference. <G>

Well... I'll stick my tongue out at you, anyway.

E

[Linrandir]

Heh. That's the respect we accord our librarians today. Pfft.

Anyway...here we go.

What is a Mold?
A mold used to make plastic components is a metal form consisting of a core and a cavity for each part. The core forms the inner shape of the part, while the cavity forms the outer shape of the part. The space in between the core and the cavity is where the melted material flows (in injection molding) or the heated, softened material is pressed (as in pressure forming or thermo-forming) to form the plastic part. Molds range in size from single cavity to upwards of 200 cavities, depending on the size of the component and the number of parts required. A car bumper mold, for example, is generally only one cavity, which a mold that produces pen barrels for Bic might be several hundred cavities.

A mold can be a complex piece of equipment that makes very complex components, and can even allow other functions to be performed inside the mold cavity such as decorating the part, assembling the part, and other functions to save time and money on secondary operations. A mold can also be a simple piece of equipment that molds simple parts. The cost of the mold is determined by the complexity, size, process type being used (i.e. blow molding, injection molding, thermoforming/pressure forming), and design requirements of the plastic component being molded.

Also found this funny thing, but not currently able to verify usability based on security restrictions on this computer.
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/mie/faculty/ka ... mcost.html
EDIT: Examined this on another computer with looser restrictions. Author is a phD at University of Massachusetts. If anyone wants to get actual measurements for a GW sprue of something (like the Carnifex) to get actual numbers/cost/etc by all means do so and post your results!


This links to the Injection Molding Handbook (3rd edition)
http://www.knovel.com/knovel2/Toc.jsp?S ... BookID=357

Injection Molding Magazine (industry magazine)
http://www.immnet.com/

More on Plastic Molding design
http://www.engineersedge.com/injection_molding,.htm


Based on this information, it becomes apparent that making the plastic mold ain't cheap because you're using steel or other hard metal for materials. This contrasts strongly with the rubber molds used to "spin" pewter miniatures because the metal will not break down over time, the chance of a spin misalignment is significantly decreased...
Molds for plastic are a long-term investment because they don't break down using the type of styrene plastic that GW uses to make their figures.

However, it also appears that the longer mold life allows for a significantly higher return on investment. Let's run some numbers and see what we get...

Let's say it costs $10,000 to design and build a mold for the new plastic Carnifex. At $45 US a model, GW would have to sell 223 to recoup the cost. Of course, that assumes a complete transition with no additional cost like transport, packaging, etc...but take a look at that. 223!! Worldwide! Once they hit Carnifex #224 the construction costs are paid off and what was cost is now profit.
Now, let's assume wholesale price is 55% of retail. That puts the Carnifex at $24.75 when bought by a independent game store. And let's assume that 20% of that wholesale goes to recouping mold cost (an admittedly huge percentage but you see my point?), which works out to $4.95 per model. Figuring that back into the original $10,000 cost figure, that means GW has to sell 2,021 Carnifexes to independent stores WORLD WIDE to recoup the mold cost.

If we turn that math around and remove the independent retailer, IE GW sells the Carnifex directly to the consumer at full retail cost, we get a sales requirement of...
$45 (retail price) * 20% (percentage going to cost recouping) = $9.00 per Carnifex going to recoup mold cost.
$10,000 (cost of original mold) / $9.00 = 1111.11 repeating, or 1112 rounded up.
That's 909 fewer Carnifexes they need to sell to recoup the mold cost. One Carnifex in each Battleforce, one in each Army Box...see how fast the numbers add up?

From this strictly numerical perspective (and using mostly invented percentages) you can see how GW's current business practice makes great sense...on paper. Looking at it from a more realistic business perspective, we quickly see that GW's plan is woefully shortsighted and is costing them huge amounts of money and customers.


GW claims to be the BMW of the gaming world. Outside from the unbridled hubris of this claim...BMW ain't that great a car. I speak from experience: My family owns an independent mercedes dealership. I used to run it. There's an Austrian slang term for the BMW acronym: Bayrisch Mist Wagen. Loosely translated, it means "Bavarian Garbage Truck."
Of course, if that's what GW wants to associate themselves with...I certainly won't stand in their way.

*everyone wave Hi to the GW Trolls who visit here!*

[PzMkV]

Lin that was awsome! Keep up the good work.

[darpified]

I may be mistaken, but I had thought that plastics were a petroleum product, and what with all forms of oil being at such a high price, would that not account at least slightly to some of the price hikes (not to mention oil is also used in most of the transportation of the raw materials and finished products).



Not that I'm very happy about the price of GW's products, but I must say that I'm very pleased with all of the new plastics they've been coming out with.

RP.

[orcdom]

then again plastics prices are reduced again with recyclables, so therefore should cancel out the price hikes in oil (for the most part anyways).
Steve

[vesrian]

Thanks Lin for the information. It doesn't really address what i was wondering, i.e. what if any differences there are in mold production and mold life for miniature formation. Molded plastics are used in a lot of applications and i don't hear much about the mold cost from other places. Presumably because production volume makes up for it. I had assumed that GW got enough use out of the molds to make the high mold cost a nonissue, but people keep bringing it up. So far, i haven't really seen anything that quantifies the difference between miniatures and other plastic components. Making a carnifex is different than making a plastic fork, i'm mainly wondering how different. Clearly the canifex mold is more complex, but what i don't know is whether the basic mold creation process is the same and if the higher quality control makes the carnifex mold have a significantly shorter lifetime. I had assumed that the major difference between the two would be in product design, but then i don't really know. It's a topic that interests me, but most information i see on it is merely people's assumptions claimed as facts. I do plan to look through the Injection Molding Handbook a bit more.

darpified: most plastics are made from petroleum byproducts and can be affected by high oil prices. The cost of oil is not the only factor in plastics cost, but it can contribute to it. But keep in mind that common bulk commercial plastics cost around USD$0.50-1.00 per pound. I don't know precisely what type of plastic and is used by GW or what additives are in it, but the majority of plastics are in that range. Compare that to the weight of plastic in a typical kit.

As another side note, on the topic of recycling, does anyone happen to have a box of GW plastics on hand. Does it have a recycling symbol on it? The recycling symbol is the triangle made of three arrows with a number in the center (most likely 6 in this case).

[Linrandir]

Most other places use the traditional rubber mold method to cast their metal figures. GW, when creating metal figures, uses the traditional method. The lower cost of the rubber mold is offset by the decreased lifespan of the actual mold itself.

Flipping it, a mold used to make plastic parts (as GW uses Injection Molding) is made from high grade steel and can last a Very Long Time (about 50,000 cycles on average according to one of the listed sources). To answer your question based on my understanding of the above sources...
GW makes an issue of high mold cost = high model prices, but you're right. The production quantities as well as sales SHOULD make up for it but right now...don't.

The basic procedure for the making of the mold is the same as for, say, a Tamiya 1/35 scale tank. The same materials are used. Considering the injection molding process is computerized, QC isn't really an issue and anything that flubs SO badly can be melted down and re-injected.

GW uses Styrene. Also, GW plastics are non-recyclable. They have no three-arrow triangle.

[orcdom]

that triangle, is it mandatory to be put on the box? if not why would GW want it on thier box?

it would show they are using an even cheaper (if not lower quality) way to make a cadilac product.

they say thiers is the best, but would customers think it is if they saw the recyclable symbol? and anyways it is not that big of a market to effect recycling that much, as gamers some of us even recyle the sprue ourselves, whether it be sprue rubble or for reinforcing glue joints.

Steve

[orcdom]

that triangle, is it mandatory to be put on the box? if not why would GW want it on thier box?

it would show they are using an even cheaper (if not lower quality) way to make a cadilac product.

they say thiers is the best, but would customers think it is if they saw the recyclable symbol? and anyways it is not that big of a market to effect recycling that much, as gamers some of us even recyle the sprue ourselves, whether it be sprue rubble or for reinforcing glue joints.

Steve

[vesrian]

that triangle, is it mandatory to be put on the box? if not why would GW want it on thier box?

it would show they are using an even cheaper (if not lower quality) way to make a cadilac product.

The symbol i was refering to indicates that the product can be recycled. You can find them on the bottom of many plastic bottles, but sometimes other plastic materials have them as well. The number in the center indicates the component plastic so that it can be sorted.
This symbol is not the same as saying it's made with recycled products (although the sumbol for that is similar).