Is it really the end of Warhammer Fantasy?

[3eland]

Usually we try to keep rumours and everything else away from Bartertown but due to Age of Sigmar creating such a huge scene I figured I would place this here for those who are on the fence about rage quitting Fantasy. Would hate to rid all my models and find out I should have kept them (actually I already have sold off all my models minus my Daemonettes since I use them in 40k LOL). I mean, what is another 3 months holding onto your figures going to lose you right?

Like all things online, take salt as needed.

Also, please keep discussion PG13 (remember this is a family friendly website) and no personal attacks on members, companies or their products.

Enjoy,

Ryan

I was just chatting in my local GW with staff and manager (the manager just returned from England from the AoS briefings) about AoS and how they need to 'push' it to customers, with regards to WHFB.

Apparently they're not told to stop people from playing fantasy (including in the store), and that they will have the rulebooks back in print in the store again in a few months, but with many armybooks most likely coming out in combined forms (and with the books that didn't receive their 8th edition book getting their update at the time - but the specifics of this info are a bit sketchy and I hadn't presumed to really ask further).

But the key thing was that HQ didn't tell them to push AoS as the new 'default' fantasy (and fantasy as some kind of specialist game), but simply as a 'new' game, alongside the old fantasy. The head of sales specifically told them to continue allowing people to play WHF in stores, rather than forcing people to change over to AoS as if it were "9th edition".

Okay, I was there this morning for preordering, and chatted with him a bit more about this stuff. He was at the managers meeting/briefing previous weekend, during which they were all briefed about AoS.

- They literally got an introduction to AoS from the developers themselves, and they all had 5-10 minutes to chat with them a little. Plenty of managers asked very specific questions regarding WHFB's future, and numerous managers asked the devs about 9th edition.
- My manager confirmed that the armybook stock is supposed to be returned/destroyed. Armybooks might return to the shelves within some months (no exact timescale known yet), but in combined versions like they were in the End Times (eg. undead legion).

- The developers were very adamant that AoS was a different game. Not WHF 9th edition, nor WHF's replacement alltogether.


Considering all the managers were at the managers meeting, people who aren't Americans living 500 miles away from a GW store should be able to pop down to the local GW and ask their managers about this stuff.

My manager really wanted to make sure that he had got all the correct information from his higherups, so that he wouldn't have to placate his customers with false promises or speculation like may have happened in the past, so when the oppertunity arose he was asked about WHFB's future, as were most other managers. He knows his customerbase and knows (and shares) the concerns that would **** them off. He knows if he couldn't give any guarantees as to WHFBs survival, he'd - and I quote - "likely be stoned to death by you guys".

TBO, are you sure he's talking about 8th ed books returning? I was just thinking that if he was told 'army books will be returning' it might be stuff for AoS, and not 8th at all.

I just can't help but think that he is somehow a bit confused about what he was told, or just misunderstood them.

WHFB rules. Very specific. The managers were all literally asking the developers about the future for Warhammer Fantasy Battle and the potential for 9th edition, because they wanted to know what guarantees they could give to their customers. I mean the devs may have misunderstood the managers or something but I don't think there was any chance for confusion.

There's a clear narrative line in all the info I received, centered around this:
- AoS is a different, seperate game, rather than WHFB's replacement. WHFB will continue to be allowed to be played in the store.
- WHFB isn't killed off, its books and rules will return to the shelves in combined versions.

While the AoS intro set was being looked at and played on one table, there was a fantasy battle going on the table next to it.

Btw my manager also mentioned something off the cuff about possible books or campaigns or something for the seperate '9 realms' of the new lore. But that was in the context of 'maybe they'll pump out stuff for the 9 realms the coming year and suddenly surprise people with 9th edition, but they didn't say anything specific about it'. Pure speculation.

[jdm921]

i feel gw introduced a great way to get "newbies" into the hobby. however, i personally feel saddened by the "death" of fantasy but 8th isnt bad and you 100% know the rules wont change so i guess there is that. locally though i know 1 tournament i decided to be in they have decided to do aos. i really hope venues still support 8th

[3eland]

Well there has been a debacle between GW store managers whether you can play 8th in store still. Some say yes, other say no. Same with the rules question. Some say they are coming back eventually (but give no specific time) while other say "no, this is the complete end".

I feel tournaments will still continue with 8th. The Swedish scene is already in the process of updating 8th into a Swedish Comp 9th edition.

Really it is way too soon to tell exactly what is going on.

[3eland]

Although it probably does not mean anything (mostly to do with it being a digital product) but you can still buy the books on iTunes and the end time books on Black Library.

[sgtventris]

GW may be hurting themselves more than normal with their cryptic answers and information blackout. The assumption seems to be building that this is the WHFB replacement and if they dont talk their gamers off the ledge they may lose much more than they gain.

[imp522]

Well there are 8 editions of Warhammer Fantasy out there. So even if there's no 9th it's still alive if you are playing it. Just because rule support stops on a game IMHO doesn't mean it's ended. I started with 3rd and played till 6th. Now I still play 3rd among other mass fantasy rules, I also admit I find it very perplexing when people say I cant use my models anymore or whatnot. It's not Gw's hobby or insert name here hobby it's your hobby. Up to you to make the most of it and get the enjoyment out of it that you want.

[3eland]

Well there are 8 editions of Warhammer Fantasy out there. So even if there's no 9th it's still alive if you are playing it. Just because rule support stops on a game IMHO doesn't mean it's ended. I started with 3rd and played till 6th. Now I still play 3rd among other mass fantasy rules, I also admit I find it very perplexing when people say I cant use my models anymore or whatnot. It's not Gw's hobby or insert name here hobby it's your hobby. Up to you to make the most of it and get the enjoyment out of it that you want.

Well said.

[kturock]

I've played and collected GW; 40k & WHFB, since 1986. People have always complained about the rules. Mostly how magic worked and movement. Both have changed several times. Magic has been better and worse. Movement has gotten simpler and more like 40k. Now, AoS has removed all of the things people have complained about; as; well as the items & spells not used. I don't know how many 40k players have stated they would play, but they didn't like the movement and facing rules. Those are gone. Look at the warpscrolls. The magic is simpler and the most commonly used spells and items are included. The biggest complaint I've heard since RT and still hear in 40K; the points aren't balanced. You models are too cheap and mine are too high. With no points costs, no arguments about which are too high or low. All the rules and army books have been released for free. So no complaints about using an old army book, not being able to afford the rules, or a $$ grab. Guess what. The old rules and army books are still around. You can still play them; at GW stores, home or where ever you want. They've made the game unbound. No more complaining that I can only field 2 of those models as a rare and you can field them as core. They've turned the game up to a 13. They've dropped the tournament aspect, but replaced the fun. If you can't balance an army without a points cost, you must be a min/maxer and looked for loop-holes int the rules. Most of you sound as bad as the Magic: The Gathering players who can't use the $$ cards they bought to unbalance the game. Just because you can't use them in tournaments, doesn't mean you can't use them elsewhere.

[3eland]

For the record I am all for AoS*

lol

[hapotte]

I was expecting the game to be un-fun so my expectation were pretty low and I find I'm pleasantly suprised by it. I haven't tried it yet but I've watched a few games and it looks good.

Sure they made funny rules like the beard thing but I think thoses rules are there for now, while we wait for the official release of either army/faction book and or gateworld book.

This weeks release is the first of a new era of fantasy releases and I think it will revamp the franchise.

[3eland]

Well, this cropped up online and it opens a whole new perspective on Age of Sigmar and Fantasy in general.

"GW had a guy camped out at the Forge World open day whos entire job was to answer questions and talk to people about Age of Sigmar. His entire job is to go to shows and talk to people about the new game. For the first time I think ever they're taking Age of Sigmar to Gencon, Comic Con, all the major wargames conventions in Europe etc. They're throwing a considerable amount of money at putting this in front of new audiences who have never played fantasy before. He was also brutally honest and didn't dodge any questions and answered everything he could. I'll start with the negative stuff first.

This is it. There categorically will not be a '9th' edition of fantasy. Age of Sigmar is the only thing fantasy related GW will do for the considerable future.

He acknowledges that the 'funny' rules are rather silly and don't make for a great intro to the system for new people. His response was that the armies in the box set don't have the silly rules. They're there as kind of a celebration and final send off of the old warhammer armies, and he said you might notice the new armies don't have the stupid noises or imaginary friends. This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place.

The new races will look different to the old ones. Ooruks will not look the same as the orcs we currently have. As such, when they get round to releasing Ooruks, the old models will cease production. He did say that you can still use your old models as ooruks, but you won't be able to buy normal orc boys again.
There will never be points values.

On to the slightly positive stuff then.
They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming.
The rules will always be free. He said that they are very very aware that fantasy had a massive buy in for someone to get started, as such the game was designed with the ability to play it with one box of models. There will be army books, but every rule in them will be available, for free, online. The books will just have extra background info and scenarios.

GW really are trying harder than they ever have before to make this work. If you're at one of the shows go and talk to them. They want to talk to you about this, but especially they want your feedback on it. As he said, this is totally uncharted territory for them and they are totally open to rules revisions as they go.

I forgot probably the best/worst bit. I asked him if he knew that it was possible to win the game first turn with the screaming bell/fateweaver thing. 'Thats deliberate' he said. 'You can do whatever you want in this game, but if you do stuff like that you probably wont have many people to play against."

[kturock]

The local GW store manager said that AoS was play-tested for a year before release. If you look at the free model in the newest edition of White Dwarf, it has a copyright of 2014. That means it was designed and planned last year. For those that don't think about it, the rulebook and the models in the new starter had to be ready for production last year.
This isn't something that was just rushed out and put on the shelves.

BTW, I did order the starter. The models are usable in both AoS and 40k. I might get part or all of a second set.

[3eland]

Yeah I read somewhere they started this shortly after 8th.

[reegsk]

There will never be points values.

They are going to fully support all modes of play, and will be releasing rules to balance armies against each other. There will be narrative campaigns where your forces are picked for you for specific missions, and there will be a system for tournament players to balance lists that isn't based on model count. He did not know the specifics of this, but said it is definitely coming.

I feel this is a contradiction. It's impossible to have your no-point cake and balance eat it too. Obviously model count is an insane way to balance a game (twenty bloodthirsters versus twenty one-wound models), but how will they balance it then? Wounds? That doesn't take into account special rules, abilities or stats. And none of the stats on their own would imply anything near balance. You'd have to create a system that takes into account stats, wounds, abilities, special rules, etc., and then assign it some sort of identifier that will give you a metric to measure its effectiveness against other models. Or, in other words, give it a points value. I understand why they don't want to do this. People have been bitching about points balance since kt starting playing thirty years ago. But you can't support competitive gameplay without some manner of points system to try and make things fair. Call it challenge rating, difficulty rankings, power, whatever, it's still a point value. X of Model A would be a good fight against X of Model B, or one of Model C, and no amount of anything would be a balanced fight against Model D because he's Fateweaver.

Overall, I'm more cautious than optimistic. GW is asking me to forget everything I've ever known about a game I've invested countless hours into over the last fifteen years. Kturock, this is far more drastic than any of the changes you've mentioned. Yes, Fantasy has changed a lot, but the system itself was still familiar. It was still set in the Old World with the armies and races we knew. I knew that I could field so many models based on their points values. I knew that a unit of Dwarf warriors could house a unit of Empire spearmen, but now it's a much closer fight, because apparently centuries-old Dwarven warriors clad in heavy armor with shields and axes are no better at fighting than a seventeen year-old human in a leather jerkin who was told which end of the spear to hold before being marched off to die. Sounds dramatic, but look at the two units.

Then:

Dwarf Warrior
WS 4
S 3
T 4
I 2
Ld 9
4+ Save

Empire Spearman
WS 3
S 3
T 3
I 3
Ld 7
5+ Save

Now:

Dwarf
Save - 5+
To Hit - 3+
To Wound - 4+
Damage - 1
Bravery - 6

Spearman
Save - 5+
To Hit - 4+
To Wound - 4+
Damage - 1
Bravery - 5

Sure, they technically cost the same, because there are no points, but the difference is tough to bear. Dwarfs used to be hard to kill and almost impossible to scare off of the battlefield. Now they're barely above a manling who hasn't yet seen two dozen winters or tasted a proper ale. And every other unit with a shield gets to re-roll failed To Hit rolls of one, but Dwarfs have to form a shieldwall to get any sort of benefit, i.e. not run or charge, just stand there and hope the enemy charges you. There's also no prohibition on wielding a great axe and forming a shield wall.

My opinion on AoS boils down to that it'll be fun for newbies, but a lot of veteran players will have to forget a lot of what they've learned to enjoy it. It'll probably be different once they flesh out the various armies, but by then my Dwarfs won't be Dwarfs anymore, they'll be Steamhead Duardin or some dumb crap like that - an arbitrary name change so GW can tighten it's IP grip. And while they're trying to get their crap together for a balanced, tourney set of rules, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Kings of War tournaments crop up, with people conveniently using their old GW models to play.

And I get that they were playtesting for a while, but it doesn't feel that way. If they were so prepared, why did they release a rules set with so many glaring rules loopholes? Why withhold this magical balancing factor? Why not release the full version of the game so people can get fully onboard and play tournaments and organized events right away? And why let people spend hundreds of dollars on hardcover books for a pretty badass plotline to completely invalidate the rules less than a year after the first book came out?

[kturock]

As a Dwarf player, I've been chased off the field. [undead, before the big undead addition]
Loopholes, have you played 40k recently? The more rules, the easier it is to break.
This isn't about tournament play. It's back to having fun. Did you read the warpscrolls? Did you see the special conditions? Some people were already doing in the game. [yelling Waaarrrggg!!. Complaining about how things have changed from before.] They're all about having fun.

With the current 'balance' in 40k, there are constant rants about how the necrons, eldar, vanilla space marines and dark angels are all OP or broken.
So points seem to not work.

What loopholes did you find?

How many codexes just became crap when the new formations came out?

And KoW is going to let people use models from their competitors in tournaments?

GW has always been a model company. Their models have always been been better than the rest. Their rules always were questionable.