Deadbeat/Backout -- GrimDog

[ddavidc]

I had an issue with GrimDog selling a Hordes Legion of Everblight army to a guy locally from underneath me after we had agreed upon the terms and time frame of the sale.

Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:46 am

What condition is everything in?

$420 shipped if in good condition?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:58 am

95% assembled with no primer. Warspears are painted. I can do 440 shipped. Its a heavy package.

Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:39 pm

Alright, I'll take it.

Can I send the paypal on wednesday? I'll have a check clearing then.

Thanks!

Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:54 pm

Works for me, send me your address and I will get it boxed up.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:09 am

What's your paypal address?

Also, did this include the mk.2 cards by chance? I realized I didn't see mention of a faction deck, tokens, book, etc. and thought I'd ask.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:47 am

I had someone offer me cash on hand last night locally and I sold the lot. Sorry

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:51 am

Wow really? After an agreed upon sale?

I hope you'll understand when I post this in the deadbeat and back out part of the forum.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:58 am

I mean sincerely not cool. I have never had someone on BT/ebay/whatever just renege on a sale.

I went and bought the legion book, deck, and tokens last night and was going to paypal half today, half wednesday.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:15 am

One last thing before I head to work, from the barter town rules thread:

A question that keeps coming up is "What constitutes a trade/purchase/agreement?" This is a good question and I am formally defining it now:

A Bartertown 'Trade' occurs when both parties have agreed to a transaction, be it a purchase (ie buyer-seller) or exhange of items and/or services, and have agreed to the terms of said transaction. For example. Morlock and I agree to trade his Warmachine Cryx for my Warhammer Fantasy Chaos. We negotiate what we're trading specifically, we negotiate shipping terms, and we negotiate a time-frame for said shipping. Once we agree - and this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed to along with a request to reply-with-agreement - the Trade is on.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:33 am

I understand the rules. I was offered the immediate payment that you didn't have till wed. I am ok with a backout

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:35 am

You agreed to the delayed payment. If you had connected me and said: ” hey another guy offered to pay today but since I've already sold to you...” I would have put it on my credit card.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:48 am

Good point. Sorry man I wasn't thinking.

Well, I'm glad he saved the $15 to ship to me and the $13 in PayPal fees, but this was incredible. He agreed to sell to me at nearly 2pm his time and sold the army sometime that very evening. Unfriendly toward a fellow BTer at best, completely lacking integrity at worst. Your call.

[ddavidc]

Keep in mind this was a proposed $440 transaction.

[GrimDog]

to clarify, it wasn't someone locally, I misspoke. It was just someone who had the cash on hand. Otherwise, yes I am at fault here.

[ddavidc]

That adds a new twist -- surely you could refund the other guy's PayPal and we could proceed with the transaction as agreed upon? Heck, I'll even pay today with "cash in hand".

[ddavidc]

Just to conclude this mess, GrimDog apparently sold the army to another BT user. I asked him if he would reverse that payment and sell me the army as he had agreed before.

In response to my previous post in this thread, he PM'd:

Sorry man but the damage is done here. I screwed up, you hit me with a BTR. I am not going to have the other guy hit me now too and incur 2 on 1 trade.

And that was his reasoning for not honoring our sale agreement... rep points on BT. It's now been two days without contact despite him reading my PMs, so I'll just call this one a hugely negative experience and move on.

[MagickalMemories]

He's got a valid point. If he renegs on the other guy in order to sell to you again, he leaves himself open to yet another Backout Report, which is eligible for a negative reference on the same trade.
That's some major double jeopardy.


Also, to be honest, it was a kind of an D*** Move on your part to ask him to turn around and screw someone else over like he already did to you, knowing how you felt about the whole thing.

Eric

[ddavidc]

The item wasn't even eligible to sell according to the BT sales agreement rules--it was sold. I don't see how it was a dick move to ask him to honor the sale agreement. I think a simple, "Hey, I screwed up and shouldn't have even negotiated a sale with you (see the Backout forum for details)." would have made any reasonable BTer not double-BTR him.

Perhaps I place too much value on integrity and keeping one's agreements.

[MagickalMemories]

The item wasn't even eligible to sell according to the BT sales agreement rules--it was sold. I don't see how it was a dick move to ask him to honor the sale agreement. I think a simple, "Hey, I screwed up and shouldn't have even negotiated a sale with you (see the Backout forum for details)." would have made any reasonable BTer not double-BTR him.

Perhaps I place too much value on integrity and keeping one's agreements.

You are right. He should not have sold it to someone else. There's no denying that and no disagreement from me on that point.
What I disagree on is your assessment of "after the backout." He made two sales agreements on the same item. He backed out of one. You want him to back out of a second sale for the same item, now. You're asking him to do the same thing he did to YOU to SOMEONE ELSE. In that case, though, it's worse, since he actually collected the money from the guy.
What you want is the more selfish of the two options. You want him to cancel the completed agreement in favor of the one that he agreed to first. I doubt you'd agree with that assessment if you were the other "buyer" in this situation. If someone did that to ME, I'd definitely leave him a Backout report... and I'd dare say I'm one of the most reasonable and agreeable traders on the site.

At this point, I think your BA report is 100% supported and correctly done. I believe that, by continuing to push the issue that he should perform a second backout in order to make you happy, you're only making yourself look bad. He's risking two BO's being placed on him in that case (since, as this one is legit, it wouldn't be removed even if he agreed to do what you're asking) and also risking a -10 hit to his ref's, since the other trader would also be justified in leaving him a negative reference. Asking or expecting someone to do that to satisfy your personal sense of justice/honor/right & wrong is pretty extreme, IMO.

Eric

[ddavidc]

Their transaction isn't completed until the item is mailed out under the same logic you are using by saying our transaction wasn't completed because payment wasn't sent. I had a sales agreement (according to the BT rules) with GrimDog and this other BTer does as well (according to the BT rules). What you are essentially saying is that the second sales agreement is more valid/important than the first. I don't see how my wanting to complete the transaction is any more selfish than should the other guy refusing to reverse the incomplete transaction if shown evidence that the item was already sold to someone else. Reversing a PayPal payment requires a few seconds time.

If someone PM'd me explaining the situation and pointed me to a thread like this with timestamps included I would absolutely accept the guy's screw up and not hit him with a BTR (because he'd already been hit with one).

I do resent being called selfish for simply trying to follow the BT rules regarding what is and what is not a sales agreement. I'm not pushing some moral code on BT beyond that of its own rules, for goodness sakes. It's like calling someone who got cut in line for their reserved table at a restaurant selfish for wanting the table before the other guests are seated and eating. Bull. It's common courtesy and they aren't even sitting down yet. I mean no ill-will toward the new buyer.

We'll agree to disagree. I'm not continuing to push the issue as you can see from my previous post:

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24pm

I'll just call this one a hugely negative experience and move on.

[MagickalMemories]

Just to clarify a couple points:

Their transaction isn't completed until the item is mailed out under the same logic you are using by saying our transaction wasn't completed because payment wasn't sent.

I never claimed otherwise.

What you are essentially saying is that the second sales agreement is more valid/important than the first.

No. What I'm saying is that two wrongs don't make a right. They just make two wrongs.

If someone PM'd me explaining the situation and pointed me to a thread like this with timestamps included I would absolutely accept the guy's screw up and not hit him with a BTR (because he'd already been hit with one).

This is not a BTR. It's a Backout post. It would not be eligible for a BTR. Not trying to be an a$$ here. I'm just a stickler for the differences in the two.
It WOULD be eligible for a Backout AND a negative ref, should the second party want to. Frankly, if most people were the second party in this instance, I believe they'd be as ticked at having the rug pulled out from under them as you (rightfully) are, and would react accordingly.

I do resent being called selfish for simply trying to follow the BT rules regarding what is and what is not a sales agreement.

BT rules state that BOTH agreements were sales agreements. Yours WAS first and SHOULD HAVE taken priority for the seller. He didn't give you the priority you deserved. That's why you've got this thread.

It's like calling someone who got cut in line for their reserved table at a restaurant selfish for wanting the table before the other guests are seated and eating.

No. It's more like asking the restaurant to have them get up after they order, since they haven't received their food yet.

I mean no ill-will toward the new buyer.

I absolutely believe you.

Eric