New Change to Bartertown Rules

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by MagickalMemories » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:55 am

Since the board outage, the functionality that removed bumping from the forums has not yet been reimplemented. Due to this, the following change is being made to Rule 13, effective immediately.
Although you can expect some form of this revision to remain after the bumping issues have been resolved, this is what we will be working from, effective immediately:
Rule #13: Ad Posting & "Post Bumping"
Please note that Bartertown users are limited to one topic/ad per forum per seven calendar days (four days for Bartertown Plus members).
For those of you who don't understand this: Look at a calendar. If I post an ad on 3 July in the 40k forum I may not repost an ad to that forum until 10 July. That is seven calendar days. It's a legal term.

Example:
Let's say I have some LOTR Riders of Rohan I want to get rid of and other miscellaneous stuff from WHFB and 40K. I can post an ad with those items together in the LOTR, WHFB and 40K forums. Seven calendar days later, I can post another ad with the same items OR I can edit the ad at any time.
What I can't do is relist the items every day in each forum.

Helpful Hint: The idea here is to prevent excessive promotion of one's trade/sale items or discussion topics. Users are prohibited via software from making more than one new topic per seven days, but there are other ways to self-promote. It's awkward wording, but "post bumping" is a term understood by the greatest number of people.
(Note that the software prohibition has been temporarily disabled. YOU are responsible for knowing and following the rules)


If you've got items that fit into multiple categories, you may cross-post given the stricture above. You may update your ad as you see fit provided your purpose is not to attempt any form of bumping.
Updating an ad is not bumping if there have been changes made to the inventory or pricing presented in the ad. It is bumping if "hey i still have this stuff available" is all that's written, or something to that extent.
Interest shown in an ad is not bumping. If you see something posted a few days ago that catches your fancy (and it's not your ad!) replying is not bumping. If someone posts a question in your ad about your items, you can freely reply to that question. Note, however, that this means you should still wait a week from the time you posted your answer before responding to the thread again.
Users who bump their threads will have their threads locked or deleted and will receive a board warning. While you are free to edit your initial post as often as you would like, please be mindful of these rules.
Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

getupandgo ( 776 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by getupandgo » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:11 pm

I got a notice that "bumping" wasn't allowed last week, and I had no idea that "bumping" was even happening since the board came up.

It seems to me that this issue is causing the mods a lot more work than they should have to do, and it should be something that is priority for whomever is in charge of the HTML /development end of the site.

I intend this as criticism for a site that I really like, and hopefully it's taken that way; but one of the things that I think may drive some of the advertisers away is the shutdown that was just experienced, and the board issues that seem to persist for months, and in some cases years. These should be handled and fixed much more quickly. It's probably costing the site a lot of money, and I'd like to see the owners of this board do ok from it, and not have it be a burden (financially, I mean).

Just my .02
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

jdjamesdean ( 2 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by jdjamesdean » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:49 pm

I just got my trade thread locked due to an update, had some numbers wrong on the mini's and had some stuff I didnt originally have in ( command squad) (-1 LC termie) also I updated it with Pictures.

Is this a lockable offense, I really hope not. It's rather silly.

Anyway if a Mod could PM me if it is or isn't or if we can get this resolved, I'd appreciate it. As I'm actually working to trade that army atm, and if it does get traded I'd love to be able to update that.

Thanks

JD

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by MagickalMemories » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:36 pm

Any reply that bumps the thread before your 7 day posting period (4 days for BT+ members) is lockable.
If you had numbers wrong and needed to fix them, the appropriate way to handle it would have been by editing the initial message.

You say it's silly because you aren't one of the people who have to police the forum. Also, as a newer user, you don't have the experiences that some of the longer-term members have. Prior to making bumps against the rules, we had people who would bump their thread a couple times a DAY. Making one rule for all has cleaned this up tremendously.

What I find silly is lack of familiarity with the rules.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

getupandgo ( 776 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by getupandgo » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:48 pm

MagickalMemories wrote:Any reply that bumps the thread before your 7 day posting period (4 days for BT+ members) is lockable.
If you had numbers wrong and needed to fix them, the appropriate way to handle it would have been by editing the initial message.

You say it's silly because you aren't one of the people who have to police the forum. Also, as a newer user, you don't have the experiences that some of the longer-term members have. Prior to making bumps against the rules, we had people who would bump their thread a couple times a DAY. Making one rule for all has cleaned this up tremendously.

What I find silly is lack of familiarity with the rules.

Eric
The issue has been resolved, and locking a thread when the author responds, now makes it impossible for people to post updates, answer question, etc.

I think it should be rescinded, as replies are no longer "bumping" anything.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by MagickalMemories » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:55 am

By our definition, it's still "bumping."
Some people access the forums by pulling them up and everything on the site just shows up. Others only show threads with new posts. For those people, the ads in question are being bumped unnecessarily by showing up in their "feeds," so-to-speak.
So, even if it doesn't bump the thread to the top of the forum any more, it still "bumps" it back into the view of those who only see threads with new posts.

As for their inability to update the thread; that's kind of the point. It limits what they are able to do with the ad. It doesn't make them unable to answer questions, however, as you can still PM them your question and they can still respond via PM. If someone asked them a question "in thread" and the thread was somehow locked before the question was answered, they can PM the asker and answer him that way.

I hope that clarifies.


Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

getupandgo ( 776 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by getupandgo » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:20 pm

MagickalMemories wrote:By our definition, it's still "bumping."
Some people access the forums by pulling them up and everything on the site just shows up. Others only show threads with new posts. For those people, the ads in question are being bumped unnecessarily by showing up in their "feeds," so-to-speak.
So, even if it doesn't bump the thread to the top of the forum any more, it still "bumps" it back into the view of those who only see threads with new posts.

As for their inability to update the thread; that's kind of the point. It limits what they are able to do with the ad. It doesn't make them unable to answer questions, however, as you can still PM them your question and they can still respond via PM. If someone asked them a question "in thread" and the thread was somehow locked before the question was answered, they can PM the asker and answer him that way.

I hope that clarifies.


Eric
I understand, but I disagree with the premise.

I think it's heavy-handed, and doesn't really serve a distinct purpose.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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HarlequinZero ( 218 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by HarlequinZero » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:07 pm

getupandgo wrote:
I understand, but I disagree with the premise.

I think it's heavy-handed, and doesn't really serve a distinct purpose.
I don't know why you would consider it heavy-handed. Can you give me one good reason to post a reply to one of your own posts rather than editing it? Even if someone asks you a question you can PM them a response. If it's something that wasn't clear in the original post just edit the original post and put *edited* or *updated* in the title. I seriously can't think of anything that would necessitate replying to your own post that couldn't be done through an edit.
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tordeck ( 228 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by tordeck » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:30 pm

HarlequinZero wrote:
I don't know why you would consider it heavy-handed. Can you give me one good reason to post a reply to one of your own posts rather than editing it? Even if someone asks you a question you can PM them a response.
Well for 1 I dont know about others but I am pretty OCD about ensure that my inbox is not a jumble of activity so as not to get lost when working multiple trades. Being able to respond to simple questions asked in thread would be a big help to that.
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getupandgo ( 776 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by getupandgo » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:03 am

I made a post about this and it didn't "take". Priority should be resolving the issue with the site and it's HTML, rather than instituting new rules that don't do anything for the members, and that make extra work for the staff.

When someone asks a question publicly, I like to answer it publicly.

For years, when I have updated a thread and put new stuff up, or sold things, I have made a quick post to the effect of "updated to reflect pending sales and trades".

This indicates to a 2nd time viewer, that there might be new things offered, or things gone that they were looking at.

I don't see the harm that it does to continue to allow this, and as I said, it just makes more work for the staff.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by MagickalMemories » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:29 am

First:

There was a misunderstanding. I was referring to the ability to ask about and answer questions on already locked posts.
Most (and admittedly not all) traders are aware of something about responding to your own posts. It was something I honestly thought was listed. After speaking with a Mod a couple days ago, though, I looked back at the OP and discovered that a facet of responding to your own thread was not listed. The OP has been altered to include the following statement:
If someone posts a question in your ad about your items, you can freely reply to that question. Note, however, that this means you should still wait a week from the time you posted your answer before responding to the thread again.
We have never had an issue with responding to threads. We have, however, had issues with new posts being made to the thread when merely updating the initial message could have shown the change. Responding to your ad to state that you made those changes, however, is a way of putting your message back into the sight of those who view their messages like I mentioned earlier.

As for enforcement; I don't know how long it's been a rule that you can't bump your ads (as we define "bump"), but it goes back farther than my time as staff. When the forums were bumpable, people bumped chronically. When it was turned off, the "no bumping" rule (in the manner that we're discussing it now) was kept. Enforcement was lax because there wasn't the staff to do it. BTown had a bare-bones staff for years. Even though you'd been able to do it for years, that doesn't mean it wasn't against the rules.
Once we got staffing levels and positions where we wanted them and with the right people in place, enforcement increased on all of the things that were officially against the rules, but often overlooked. We started by looking at issues where we saw the most complaints. As we were able to get various things in place, we moved on to others.
Are we perfect? Nope. Far from it. Do we catch every one of them? Not at all. We don't go actively looking for offenders. If we happen to see it or if someone reports it (we get a couple a week, at least), we deal with it.

The added work for the staff isn't that huge. Plus, since we're all volunteer and our only nourishment is the thanks we get (LOL), we go into it knowing what is (and may be) expected of us, including the fact that a portion of our time on the site (often, more tham our "personal" time spent here) will be used to handle the minutia of the site.

Hopefully, that answers and addresses any questions and issues you have. Feel free, as always, to respond. I'll get back with you ASAP.

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

getupandgo ( 776 )
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Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:24 pm

Re: New Change to Bartertown Rules

Post by getupandgo » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:23 am

MagickalMemories wrote:First:

There was a misunderstanding. I was referring to the ability to ask about and answer questions on already locked posts.
Most (and admittedly not all) traders are aware of something about responding to your own posts. It was something I honestly thought was listed. After speaking with a Mod a couple days ago, though, I looked back at the OP and discovered that a facet of responding to your own thread was not listed. The OP has been altered to include the following statement:
If someone posts a question in your ad about your items, you can freely reply to that question. Note, however, that this means you should still wait a week from the time you posted your answer before responding to the thread again.
We have never had an issue with responding to threads. We have, however, had issues with new posts being made to the thread when merely updating the initial message could have shown the change. Responding to your ad to state that you made those changes, however, is a way of putting your message back into the sight of those who view their messages like I mentioned earlier.

As for enforcement; I don't know how long it's been a rule that you can't bump your ads (as we define "bump"), but it goes back farther than my time as staff. When the forums were bumpable, people bumped chronically. When it was turned off, the "no bumping" rule (in the manner that we're discussing it now) was kept. Enforcement was lax because there wasn't the staff to do it. BTown had a bare-bones staff for years. Even though you'd been able to do it for years, that doesn't mean it wasn't against the rules.
Once we got staffing levels and positions where we wanted them and with the right people in place, enforcement increased on all of the things that were officially against the rules, but often overlooked. We started by looking at issues where we saw the most complaints. As we were able to get various things in place, we moved on to others.
Are we perfect? Nope. Far from it. Do we catch every one of them? Not at all. We don't go actively looking for offenders. If we happen to see it or if someone reports it (we get a couple a week, at least), we deal with it.

The added work for the staff isn't that huge. Plus, since we're all volunteer and our only nourishment is the thanks we get (LOL), we go into it knowing what is (and may be) expected of us, including the fact that a portion of our time on the site (often, more tham our "personal" time spent here) will be used to handle the minutia of the site.

Hopefully, that answers and addresses any questions and issues you have. Feel free, as always, to respond. I'll get back with you ASAP.

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

Eric
From my experiences; I "bumped" threads to indicate that they were updated all the time... It was never my intention (or was I even aware) that they were searchable and that they would somehow seem "new". Furthermore, I was never called on it, nor alerted that it was an issue, until the problems with the site caused responses to actually bump the posts back up to the top. At that point, I also didn't realize that was happening, and my thread was locked without comment.

Furthermore, I have seen several threads locked for OPs responding to questions asked in the threads, so perhaps not all he mods are on the same page with this?

Again, it's my personal opinion that in general, the locking of these threads seems heavy-handed, and it doesn't really serve to create a user-friendly environment.

That said, if it were being abused, I would recommend handling it on a case-by-case basis, but if it's not being abused, I really don't see the issue.

I don't want to get too cyclical with this, so I'll leave it at that.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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