Bartertown.com

Seller refused to meet requirements of my sale (a confirmed paypal address was CLEARLY STATED that it was a requirement in my post) and when I told him I needed him to confirm his address in order for me to ship him the lictors he was intent on purchasing, instead he refused, left me a negative trade reference, and blamed it on a few dollars extra it would've costed me to ship the lictors to Canada. I told him that I was only able to bite shipping in the US -- and I am handling paypal fees, and that is more than most sellers would do. I was not refusing to ship to Canada, but he immediately took that as his way out in the purchase.

Needless to say he is obviously a novice at bartertown, and a rude ridiculous one at that. Leaving a negative reference because you failed to comply with the requirements of my sale, despite the fact that I quickly refunded your payment and explained why? Unbelievable. Paypal seller protection only applies with a confirmed address -- I'm not going to ship to an unconfirmed address in another country, get real.

PMS to follow:
Delete messageQuote messageLictors for Paypal
Sent: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:24 pm
From: Maelx
To: md02geist

Hey geist,

I know this is a little late, but do you still have those Lictors for sale? I'd be more than happy to take them off your hands.
Hey Maelx,

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:50 pm
by md02geist

Hey Maelx,

I sure do. Were you interested in both? If so, they'd be 27.50 shipped (I knocked 7-8% off for buying both, and shipping is on me) with a confirmed paypal address. I can ship first thing tomorrow morning.

If you are interested, just send payment to firefighterwall@yahoo.com.


Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:27 am
by Maelx

Hey geist! A few extra questions before we close if you don't mind.

Are they new 4th edition lictors (since last book), or 3rd edition lictors? Do they come with all bits? What kind of condition are they in?

Thanks!

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:15 am
by md02geist

they are the latest release...so they are metal, but they are the awesomely tall ones. Both have been primed black. One has blue armor (carapace on top) and a dark flesh basecoat for his body, the other has blue armor and a bleached bone basecoat for his body. Either would be an easy strip and repaint.

There are not "bits" for lictors, but they do have all their pieces, yes.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:38 am
by Maelx

Okay sounds good. I'll send you an echeque - it should take a little bit to clear but will clear without a problem.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:39 am
by md02geist

I have no idea how an echeque works but so long as it's paypal we're all good

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:01 pm
by md02geist

If you still want these lictors, you might want to send out payment soon. I can't hold them forever, you were the first one interested in them but currently not the only one.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:06 pm
by Maelx

Sorry! Somehow I lost your paypal account email address. I was actually going through to find it just as you sent me this message.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:56 am
by md02geist

No problem. The lictors are still here, was going to give you until middle of this week. The paypal address is firefighterwall@yahoo.com.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:28 am
by Maelx

Payment sent - please confirm!

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:00 pm
by md02geist

Got the payment...says it won't clear until the 30th. I will need to wait to ship until funds have cleared, but as soon as they have (and I have shipped) I will notify you.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:02 pm
by md02geist

I just checked and you have an unconfirmed paypal address, and the item is not eligible for shipping protection. Unfortunately until you remedy this problem, I cannot allow you to purchase these -- particularly since you are in another country. Very sorry.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:06 pm
by Maelx

md02geist wrote:
I just checked and you have an unconfirmed paypal address, and the item is not eligible for shipping protection. Unfortunately until you remedy this problem, I cannot allow you to purchase these -- particularly since you are in another country. Very sorry.

Unconfirmed? I must have unconfirmed during my move, unfortunately. Why do I need to confirm my address before you ship the models? I have another, confirmed address you could also ship to, but it's my permanent address in another city.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:44 pm
by md02geist

Yes, your address is unconfirmed by paypal. You need to confirm your address because if you don't, I am not protected by paypal's seller protection policy. Shipping to an unconfirmed address is the easiest, most common way to get ripped off on paypal when you are the seller.

You also didn't mention that you were outside of the US -- I can only bite the shipping on lictors if you were domestic, they are so heavy that it will be 5 or 6 bucks just in the US alone. I don't even know what they would be to Ontario, but certainly more.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:07 pm
by Maelx

md02geist wrote:
Yes, your address is unconfirmed by paypal. You need to confirm your address because if you don't, I am not protected by paypal's seller protection policy. Shipping to an unconfirmed address is the easiest, most common way to get ripped off on paypal when you are the seller.

How can you get ripped off if you get the cash up front? I'm confused here. If you'd like I can give you ebay references or anything else to make you feel better about sending to this address, although i am a little confused why it hasn't been confirmed yet since I've had over a dozen ebay auctions ship here already.


You also didn't mention that you were outside of the US -- I can only bite the shipping on lictors if you were domestic, they are so heavy that it will be 5 or 6 bucks just in the US alone. I don't even know what they would be to Ontario, but certainly more.

Sorry I didn't mention I was out of the country. I probably should have up front, but I figured the dollar or two more shipping charge wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure if you actually checked the shipping costs rather than assuming you'd find they were less than you thought.

Anyways, too bad this fell through. Good luck getting rid of those.

Original for sale ad:
H: Tyranids, Space Marines, Metal Daemonettes; W: Paypal
by md02geist » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Prices negotiable; I'll cover shipping on purchases over 20.00. Don't worry about paypal fees, I'll handle those.


-Tyranid Codex (Yep I have two, only one for sale) - 15.00

-Space Marine Whirlwind, painted mechrite red - 25.00

-Space Marine Dread - Regular dread, painted well in gold/red colors. Comes with all four arms (DCCW, TLLC, AC, and ML) 30.00

-2x Lictor - Assembled, painted blue/bone or blue/dark flesh (your choice). Either would be an easy strip with simple green, or even an easy paint over. 15.00.


-10x Metal Daemonettes (6th edition, NOT crab claws) - Submit offer.


Paypal please, with a confirmed address (for both of our protections). (emphasis mine)


I was refusing to send him the lictors due to his unconfirmed status, not the few extra dollars to Canada it would've cost to ship. I didn't even mention the shipping until he'd already argued the point about his unconfirmed address -- my point was I was not going to bite the fees, bite the international shipping, and bite the insurnace and delivery confirmation on two already underpriced yet heavy models in order to be potentially ripped off by someone without a confirmed address.

Paypal email (real names and addresses edited for obvious reasons):

Funds Are on the Way!

Hello Rob [last name],


You have just been sent a payment by eCheck. You will receive the money in about 6-8 business days (estimated: 9/30/2009-10/2/2009). We recommend that you wait until the money arrives before shipping items. We'll email you when this eCheck payment has been deposited into your account.



eCheck details




Amount: $28.00 USD
Transaction ID: 07B36135991625111


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Payment details


Buyer: James [last name]

Subject: You've got money!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shipping Information


Address [edited out]

Address status Unconfirmed

Important Note: James [last name ]has provided an unconfirmed address. If you are planning to ship items to James Tubbs, please check the Transaction Details page of this payment to find out whether you will be covered by our Seller Protection Policy.


Sincerely,
PayPal

You did a good job to make sure to state, up front, that you would only ship to a confirmed address. More traders should be clear on that.

The fact that you offered to pay shipping, and NOT "shipping within the US" makes is a kind of crappy move to even bring up the fact that he was in Canada as a problem. The way you said it was not in support of why you needed the address confirmed but meant to show how expensive shipping was. You stated it in such a way that - intended or not- it looked as if you were giving it as a SECOND reason why you would not ship the item. If that was not your intent, you should word your PMs more carefully.

Also, please chill out with the "Novice at bartertown" comments. A year and a half and 11 trades does not exactly make you a veteran. I mean, you're no novice, obviously... but you're not quite a veteran, either. Plus, the fact that you've been here this long means you should have picked up on the things I mentioned above.

I will not make a decision without speaking with other Staff members about this, but my opinion is that the negative you received should be removed. Also (IMO), his does qualify for a "backout" report and might deserve his ref, as well.

In the future, please communicate any shipping location limitations in advance. I can't ask you to be clearer on your "confirmed address" rule, though... I don't know how you could have been.

Eric

I think they are both in the wrong here and both should keep the refs that they got.

Maelx should have made sure that his address was confirmed, but he did say that he had a permanent address that was confirmed. Also, he could have went to paypal and got the current address confirmed.

md02geist should have stated in the ad or in the PMs that he would only pay shipping in the US. I think it is his fault also, because he was going to let Maelx fix the problem, but then he changed the deal by saying that he was not going to pay for the shipping.

George

I agree with Govannon--but I would actually be more willing to work with Maelx than Md02giest. He did make the mistake of being ignorant as to what a confirmed Paypal address is, and he also made a mistake in giving a negative reference (maybe he didn't know how serious that is?). But, Maelx did pay up, and seemed a decent guy. Md02giest, while undesrving of this crap, could've dealt with this alot better, IMO.

Truthfully, I didn't even know what a confirmed address is. I always have packages shipped to work, for a bunch of reasons. What was Md02giest worried about, since he already had the money? I just don't get it, so maybe someone more knowledgable can explain? Does Paypal 'seller protection' really protect you?

Really, this situation seems kind of unnecessary and overblown. Good luck to all of you.

--Aaron

govannon wrote:Also, he could have went to paypal and got the current address confirmed.

No, I cannot. I've checked this extensively and the options for confirming paypal addresses is only available inside the US.

[quote="Repeter"[Maelx] also made a mistake in giving a negative reference (maybe he didn't know how serious that is?)... Really, this situation seems kind of unnecessary and overblown. Good luck to all of you.[/quote]

You're telling me. Ah well, live and learn! I'll just have to make my way back up from my -8 with the other deals i have in progress now.

Damn no edit.

Maelx wrote:No, I cannot. I've checked this extensively and the options for confirming paypal addresses is only available inside the US.

Since last night, that is. lol.

Repeter wrote:I agree with Govannon--but I would actually be more willing to work with Maelx than Md02giest. He did make the mistake of being ignorant as to what a confirmed Paypal address is, and he also made a mistake in giving a negative reference (maybe he didn't know how serious that is?). But, Maelx did pay up, and seemed a decent guy. Md02giest, while undesrving of this crap, could've dealt with this alot better, IMO.

Truthfully, I didn't even know what a confirmed address is. I always have packages shipped to work, for a bunch of reasons. What was Md02giest worried about, since he already had the money? I just don't get it, so maybe someone more knowledgable can explain? Does Paypal 'seller protection' really protect you?

Really, this situation seems kind of unnecessary and overblown. Good luck to all of you.

--Aaron

Unfortunately my filing of the negative ref, and the post in the deadbeat section, all came AFTER he preemptively decided to file a bad rep and post about me here first. My posts were a direct response to his actions, so I'm not sure how I could've "dealt with this better." A negative ref and a post in the deadbeat trader forum is pretty serious business on this site, so the only thing I could do was respond in kind and allow the admins to decide based on the presented evidence on both sides.

I see you are not familiar with paypal, so I will explain (let me make it clear I'm not trying to be rude here). What I was worried about is that on paypal, you can file a complaint that you have not recieved an item and paypal will often find in favor of the purchaser, if the paypal item was not covered by the seller protection policy (which typically requires a confirmed address). Paypal has the ability to reverse a payment -- so there is no "cash in hand" unless you follow all the guidelines of seller protection. It's not like I said "Yeah, thanks for your money but it's no good here because you're in Canada. Had I shipped the item and he, with an unconfirmed address, decided to file an "item not recieved" report against me, there is a good chance that paypal would've reversed his payment and not only left me without the money, but without the lictors, but also without the shipping and insurance and confirmation.

In this case, his address was unconfirmed, he was in another country, and I was specifically not covered by paypal. This was noted on his payment information page, and the fact that his address was unconfirmed was mentioned specifically by Paypal in the email regarding his payment.

You guys are probably right in that the way I communicated the fact that I was unaware he was in Canada probably could've been worded better...it was simply another thing I was trying to point out about how the situation could quickly turn bad for me. However, I can see how it would've come across the other way.

Regardless of whether he was in another country or not however, both my original ad and my emails stated multiple times that I required a confirmed address -- if he couldn't get one due to paypal's policies about confirmed addresses, then he obviously couldn't purchase my items. I'd say considering the fact that I'm willing to pay for so many of the costs of the transaction on two already underpriced models shows my ability to work with others.

govannon wrote:I think they are both in the wrong here and both should keep the refs that they got.

Maelx should have made sure that his address was confirmed, but he did say that he had a permanent address that was confirmed. Also, he could have went to paypal and got the current address confirmed.

md02geist should have stated in the ad or in the PMs that he would only pay shipping in the US. I think it is his fault also, because he was going to let Maelx fix the problem, but then he changed the deal by saying that he was not going to pay for the shipping.

George

Rather than attempt to fix the problem, Maelx just argued that everything should be fine because he had used this unconfirmed address before. My original 'I'm sorry, but until you fix this problem" PM allowed him the chance to fix it, but his response (to me) told me he didn't want to. I pointed out the Canada thing because I realized that I couldn't bite the shipping, the insurance, the confirmation, and the paypal fees on two heavy models to another country as he didn't have a confirmed address. I was wrong in how I stated it, and it certainly looked like I wouldn't ship just because he was in Canada. However, his final PM to me, seemingly politely understanding of the deal, was immediately followed by a negative ref and a post in the deadbeat forum. There was no more time for discourse, nor was there time to remedy the problem or come to some sort of negotiation on the issue.

Had he said "no problem, I'll send you payment with my work confirmed address" I would've gladly accepted it and sent it, as I would've been covered by paypal's seller protection policy in this case. However, he preemptively ended any sort of discussion that could be had by making his posts and ref post.

In your sale post and your PM to Maelx, you said you would cover shipping. That is your part of the deal. If you were concerned about shipping costs outside of the US, then you should have stipulated in your ad and in your PM that the free shipping is only available in the US. This is a live-and-learn situation - but you are definitely in the wrong on changing terms about shipping after your statements.

Now, I agree on the point of the confirmed versus unconfirmed shipping addresses with paypal. You clearly stated that in your post, and it is the responsibility of the buyer to meet the eligibility terms when they are laid out. Paypal only states that the alternate address confirmation is US only. Nothing states that the other means of confirming an address are US only. So I agree with you here.

If you had never mentioned the shipping to Canada bit, I would say you were in the clear and he was at fault. But the whole bit about extra shipping to Canada (which is very pricey, I know) I'd say you both are at fault. Just take this and learn from it.

md02geist wrote:Rather than attempt to fix the problem, Maelx just argued that everything should be fine because he had used this unconfirmed address before. My original 'I'm sorry, but until you fix this problem" PM allowed him the chance to fix it, but his response (to me) told me he didn't want to.

Had he said "no problem, I'll send you payment with my work confirmed address" I would've gladly accepted it and sent it, as I would've been covered by paypal's seller protection policy in this case. However, he preemptively ended any sort of discussion that could be had by making his posts and ref post.

I'll just quote our conversation and everyone can make up their own mind.

by md02geist wrote:
I just checked and you have an unconfirmed paypal address, and the item is not eligible for shipping protection. Unfortunately until you remedy this problem, I cannot allow you to purchase these -- particularly since you are in another country. Very sorry.

by Maelx:
Unconfirmed? I must have unconfirmed during my move, unfortunately. Why do I need to confirm my address before you ship the models? I have another, confirmed address you could also ship to, but it's my permanent address in another city.

by md02geist:
Yes, your address is unconfirmed by paypal. You need to confirm your address because if you don't, I am not protected by paypal's seller protection policy. Shipping to an unconfirmed address is the easiest, most common way to get ripped off on paypal when you are the seller.

You also didn't mention that you were outside of the US -- I can only bite the shipping on lictors if you were domestic, they are so heavy that it will be 5 or 6 bucks just in the US alone. I don't even know what they would be to Ontario, but certainly more.

Creeper wrote:Nothing states that the other means of confirming an address are US only. So I agree with you here.

Just to let you know, there are three methods of confirming a paypal address:

1. Add a credit card to their PayPal account. PayPal will confirm the credit card billing address (the address where you receive your credit card statement).

My other permanent address is the one that is confirmed, and the one I use with my credit card. I move pretty frequently so this isn't really an option.

2. Apply for PayPal Buyer Credit. If they're approved, the address on your application will be a confirmed address.

After clicking this link it says "available in the US only"

3. Alternate address confirmation. This process takes several days and is only available for U.S. accounts. To learn more, log in to your PayPal account and visit Alternate Address Confirmation.

Also, not available to Canada.

Creeper wrote:In your sale post and your PM to Maelx, you said you would cover shipping. That is your part of the deal. If you were concerned about shipping costs outside of the US, then you should have stipulated in your ad and in your PM that the free shipping is only available in the US. This is a live-and-learn situation - but you are definitely in the wrong on changing terms about shipping after your statements.

Now, I agree on the point of the confirmed versus unconfirmed shipping addresses with paypal. You clearly stated that in your post, and it is the responsibility of the buyer to meet the eligibility terms when they are laid out. Paypal only states that the alternate address confirmation is US only. Nothing states that the other means of confirming an address are US only. So I agree with you here.

If you had never mentioned the shipping to Canada bit, I would say you were in the clear and he was at fault. But the whole bit about extra shipping to Canada (which is very pricey, I know) I'd say you both are at fault. Just take this and learn from it.

The sale was veto'd even prior to the mention of shipping to Canada -- please read the PMs along with timestamps to confirm this. Whether I mentioned shipping to Canada or not was not even a factor in the veto of the sale, as I clearly stated "I cannot allow you to purchase these items" prior to mentioning anything about Canada. The Canada thing was only mentioned as it was one more cost I could not afford in the event of an unconfirmed address.

It's a moot point about the Canada thing.

And as I stated, if you cannot get a confirmed address, you clearly cannot purchase my items. If you cannot get a confirmed address because you are in Canada, because you are in Germany, or because you live on Venus, it doesn't matter -- you simply cannot get a confirmed address and thus cannot purchase my items.

To verify:

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:02 pm
by md02geist

I just checked and you have an unconfirmed paypal address, and the item is not eligible for shipping protection. Unfortunately until you remedy this problem, I cannot allow you to purchase these -- particularly since you are in another country. Very sorry.

Re: Lictors for Paypal
Sent: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:06 pm
by Maelx

Unconfirmed? I must have unconfirmed during my move, unfortunately. Why do I need to confirm my address before you ship the models? I have another, confirmed address you could also ship to, but it's my permanent address in another city.

Rather than saying "I understand" he continues to argue with me. Again, had he provided his other confirmed address I would have shipped to that address.

He did argue with you about the confirmed address, but then he said he had another address that was confirmed. You could have then asked him what it was and if you could ship it there.