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MEDEVL ( 362 )
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Posts: 716
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Post by MEDEVL » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:43 pm

I'm not all together sure if some people are posting stuff on here just to illustrate a point or if they really believe what they are saying BUT...

Although I think it might be off topic I wll say that I think the big difference between people who break deals (the original topic of the post) and people who make "lowball" offers for stuff is very simple. Per the site rules the first is illegal and this forum is attempting to address that. The second, the lowballing, might be annoying to you and very much looked down upon on other sites, but there's nothing wrong with it. You don't have to accept any offers, as MM hints you don't even have to reply to lowball offers if they offend you so much. Do what you will with them. If you feel that someone gets out of hand by submitting a few lowball offers you might consider politely asking them not to contact you any further as you are not inclined to trade with them. Or as was also suggested just list prices that you will accept for your trade items then it makes that whole negotiation phase MUCH easier.
That we are even having all of this talk about something that really isn't relevant to the original thread topic is pointless. What we are trying to combat here is a proven problem that has been affecting the well-being of the site for sometime. To my knowledge there has never before been a rash of lowballers and a public cry for rules changes to deal with them. Until said outcry arises from multiple sources with documentable proof I suggest we table further discussoin about it and try to get back to the topic at hand, that of people who back out of existing deals or stop communicating entirely.
The believer is happy, the doubter is wise.

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J35T3R.us ( 84 )
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Post by J35T3R.us » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:52 pm

Adunaphel wrote: I have never heard of this mythical beast you are refering to: lowballer.
That's strange how "lowballer" was your choice of focus, and not "backeroutter" imo a much more mangled word....
morgan kelly wrote: no way, I wanna keep some of this crazy discussion fresh in my mind, so I can come back here and remember the one guy who thought he had all the answers.
NO NO NO(not to be cnfused with "ho ho ho")!!! You have it all wrong!!! I only think I know 90% of all the answers...
MEDEVL wrote: try to get back to the topic at hand, that of people who back out of existing deals or stop communicating entirely.
Oh yeah... That was the topic huh? Wait... Why are we "getting back" to something that has nothing to "get back" to??? Isn't this topic in existance and well, fully operational as it stands? What is there to get back to? Without our "off-topic" (which I don't agree on since all the topics brought up so far have been on par with "bad trading behavior") discussion this thread would be empty.... =)
Warmachine H/W List: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=171984

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MagickalMemories ( 742 )
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Post by MagickalMemories » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:20 pm

J35T3R.us wrote:I'm done with you
Okay. I'll try to be strong & contain my disappointment.
IMIF


Then to everyone else...

Plarz wrote:What really gets me, and what made me post was this:
MagickalMemories wrote: If I'm lowballed, my response depends on the individual. If it's someone I "know," regardless of post count or time on the site, I will counter - or "No, thanks," at least.
If I don't "know" them -again, regardless of post count or time on the site- They just don't get a response.

Whoa, wait a minute. If someone lowballs you and you don't know them you just ignore them? This is seems to be the very thing that belongs in this area - people not communicating. If I made an offer you thought was a lowball, and you were to ignore me, I'd cry. Rule #6 says to Be Polite, and ignoring someone surely isn't polite.
LOL
[playful banter]I'd make you cry?
I promise not to ignore any offers you send me, then.[/playful banter]

Seriously, though. I would. Maybe it's rude. I don't deny that it could be. I make NO claims to perfection. My ignoring would be done so that I do not come across as impolite in my response, as I know I'd be tempted to say something that isn't 100% polite (though not necessarily rude).

As for choosing to whom I respond... Well, if Adunaphel low-balled me, he'd get a response with a counter offer & some playful ribbing about lowballing.
Though I don't consider you to be someone I "know" yet, I've seen a couple posts of yours recently and, if you were to continue spending more time on the site in a contributory manner (i.e. not just posting & answering trade ads), you'd hit that "known" list quite swiftly. As is, right now, you'd probably get a response similar to what I mentioned for Adunaphel.


EDIT: Don't mean to attack here at all, just pointing it out. You seem to be a very well known and respected member of the forum, and as such the above isn't something I'd expect. I'd expect to be pointed to an eBay page or the retail site of the item and instructed to do a little research before making an offer. I could also be missreading your use of "know"...
:)
No worries. You'd have to be substatnially more belligerent (which you were not at all) to make me feel attacked. I have a pretty thick skin. Even the more annoying members here amuse me more than anything else. Honestly, I'd find your example of ebay links to be ruder than not responding... but we can just chalk that up to everyone being different.
By "know," I'm referring to my exposure to them. There are people on the site that I have had almost no direct contact with, but whose threads & responses I've seen quite a bit, that I put on that list. You could have a 4 rating, only 8 posts, but have completed one single trade with me and, if I remember you from that trade, then you're "known." It's all subjective and varies by person on whether or not I "know" them (in the sense that I meant it earlier).

Hope that helps.
Perhaps a mechanism is needed that would place the trade details into a text field <SNIP>
I'm not fond of the idea. It goes to micromanagement again. WAY too much to expect of a free site, anyway, IMO.



J35T3R.us wrote:
MagickalMemories wrote:
you cannot paint BTown the same as you would another trade site because it isn't the same

It isn't the same? How do you know?
MagickalMemories wrote: I am a member of NO other trade sites & never have been

Oh... I'm sorry, I didn't know you were so knowledged on the practice of other sites... Yeah, don't let my 6-7 accounts on other trading sites fool you, I know NOTHING of their rules/guidelines/ideals...
Lack of membership does not mean I haven't experienced them. It means I haven't joined. A few years back, I checked out a couple other trade sites to see if I wanted to expand my exposure to trades. I only recall that one was too strict (rules for every tiny little thing, it seemed) and the other was too rude (people were downright ugly to each other and the Mods didn't care).
Oh? I thought you were aginst more work... Well, I guess ONE MORE thread can't hurt.... Where do we draw the line? 1 more thread? 2 more threads? A WHOLE REVISION of the rules? Donno...
Nope. I'm against TOO much work for the Admins (obviously, if Linrandir started this forum, then he doesn't think it will be too much work) ad I'm against micromanagement of trade practices.
........?
I hope this isn't news to you but, in this "WONDERFUL COUNTRY OF FREE SPEECH," we are allowed to (Hate is too strong a word. I spoke too harshly. I officially revoke "hate" and replace it with SEVERELY dislike) SEVERELY dislike something yet still welcome it.
People who are anti-abortion but pro choice come to mind (NO intent to make this an abortion thread. JUST using it as an example).
It's not a complicated process.
This thread (WITHOUT ANY POSTS MIND YOU) now outranks the following real threads on our boards... LOL FACTOR!!!

If you hang around a while, you'll see that, on Bartertown, people tend to gravitate to topics of interest. Obviously, there are people interested in (a) this forum and (b) the ideas presented in this thread and (c) both. "Hot" topics like this are not an unheard of sight.

Adunaphel wrote:I can't really help myself on this last point. But, if low-balling is the same as a deadbeat then there is NO WAY that I have the references that I have! I have on many occasions "low-balled", if that is what you want to call it. Sometimes I haven't heard back (which I think is fine at the beginning of a trade negotiation). Sometimes I get a very terse note stating that I am WAY below what they would sell at. BUT, most often, I get a counter-offer.


Absolutely.
Just because you annoy someone with a lowball doesn't make you a bad trader... even if EVERY initial offer is a low ball. It makes you a Barterer.
Which is what this site is all about, IMHO. (see, I did again Eric)
...and I am SO proud of you.
Look, Stanislav! Our little boy is growing up!
:-D
FWIW, I still agree with you about the BIG issues (U, R, ur, no caps or punctuation), I just prefer a few of the netspeak phrases to the real ones for space & time constraints (FWIW, IMHO & LOL simply aren't WORTH typing out, IMO)
So, I guess I low-ball occasionally. BUT, I would NEVER backout on a deal when I had given it a final OK. NEVER.

So, in my opinion a back-out is NOTHING like low-balling.
Preach that gospel, brother Adun.

J35T3R.us wrote:This thread is fine... I mean, like I said 15 posts ago, this thread should be wiped clean of all these "impeding" and useless posts and start over in a clean and governed state with the guidelines and well...
That's not how the Admin work here. The only time things get wiped out is when a server crashed & Adam's web host didn't back the site up like they were supposed to (good times, there) or on an individual basis by post.
If, in a post, I called someone a bunch of names and was generally hostile towards them, or if I posted a bunch of links to p0rn sites, a Mod or Admin would wipe the post clean & insert a note to me (likely a smart-a55 one, too) and probably give me a warning, at LEAST.

On another note, thanks for your choice of words. I recognize which word you'd have liked to put in the quotes (I presume), and you didn't. FWIW, I do appreciate that little thing.

Adunaphel wrote:I think Texans have a word for somebody like you are refering to, and it's Jacka$$.

I think it would be interesting to see if anybody else here has met up with that particularly strange bird...
More frequently, as of late.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

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Plarz ( 314 )
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Post by Plarz » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:02 pm

MagickalMemories wrote:I'm not fond of the idea. It goes to micromanagement again. WAY too much to expect of a free site, anyway, IMO.
Well, It doesn't need to be something the mods do every time for each trade that's put together. It's easier for me to explain my idea through an example.

Say I'm trading you my A, B and C for your X, Y and Z. When one of us feels the trade has been finalized, we grab a link at the top of every page (like the Post a Trade Ref link) and do this (say I'm filling it out):

I fill in your username or e-mail

I fill in a text field what I'm doing for my part: A, B and C

I fill in your part: X and Y

(optional section?) I fill in our agreed time period: ship within a week.

I hit submit. Now, in your inbox you get a nice little mail that says that I have sent you a trade agreement. You click the link and you see what I've filled out, but you can't edit it. Instead you can amend what's there, or cancel and go to the link on the page and make a new one.

So you fill in the missing Z in your side of the deal and send it back. I agree I'm an idiot for forgetting about the Z, and click accept.
Now an electronic copy of that little page is stored along with an ID number, and both you and I are sent a copy, with a link to an ID specific feedback page (doesn't have to be fancy, just have a link back to that agreement page).

When I receive my X, Y and Z, I go to the link and click satisfied with the trade, sing your praises and go on my merry way.

You get your stuff, and do the same.
Now, should there be a dispute, we can give the Mods the link to our agreement page which has details on exactly what we agreed upon, and we can post the PMs as additional proof of whatever.

The basic idea of it is that it synthesizes the trade confirmation and feedback steps in an easy, recallable record, plus, there really isn't anything that's making you use it. It's just an additional bit of security / solid way of telling where a trade is.
MagickalMemories wrote:Please, nobody take this the wrong way when I say... Plarz, I love you.
No, no, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin and - then - thrust!
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Currently trading with: - | Owed Refs from: - | Owe refs to: -
If I owe you a ref, PM me!

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insidius ( 76 )
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Post by insidius » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 pm

Plarz wrote:
MagickalMemories wrote:I'm not fond of the idea. It goes to micromanagement again. WAY too much to expect of a free site, anyway, IMO.
Well, It doesn't need to be something the mods do every time for each trade that's put together. It's easier for me to explain my idea through an example.

Say I'm trading you my A, B and C for your X, Y and Z. When one of us feels the trade has been finalized, we grab a link at the top of every page (like the Post a Trade Ref link) and do this (say I'm filling it out):

I fill in your username or e-mail

I fill in a text field what I'm doing for my part: A, B and C

I fill in your part: X and Y

(optional section?) I fill in our agreed time period: ship within a week.

I hit submit. Now, in your inbox you get a nice little mail that says that I have sent you a trade agreement. You click the link and you see what I've filled out, but you can't edit it. Instead you can amend what's there, or cancel and go to the link on the page and make a new one.

So you fill in the missing Z in your side of the deal and send it back. I agree I'm an idiot for forgetting about the Z, and click accept.
Now an electronic copy of that little page is stored along with an ID number, and both you and I are sent a copy, with a link to an ID specific feedback page (doesn't have to be fancy, just have a link back to that agreement page).

When I receive my X, Y and Z, I go to the link and click satisfied with the trade, sing your praises and go on my merry way.

You get your stuff, and do the same.
Now, should there be a dispute, we can give the Mods the link to our agreement page which has details on exactly what we agreed upon, and we can post the PMs as additional proof of whatever.

The basic idea of it is that it synthesizes the trade confirmation and feedback steps in an easy, recallable record, plus, there really isn't anything that's making you use it. It's just an additional bit of security / solid way of telling where a trade is.


I've been lobbying for this idea for years.
mon·ey: noun; a good that acts as a medium of exchange in transactions.
Money is a good like everything else; if your rating is lower, you ship first whether money is involved or not.

USPS Mail Fraud / / FBI Internet Fraud Center

Jim Denberger ( 44 )
Journeyman Trader
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:34 pm
Location: Washington State

This could be a pandoras Box.....

Post by Jim Denberger » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:32 pm

This has the potential to really mess things up around here. I've been trading on B-town for several years. So far, I've not had any rip offs on Bartertown. I have had several potential trades simply fall apart because I like to keep a trade simple and quick while others don't mind dragging things out for several days to a week or more.

The reality is, most of us have families, lives, jobs and other things in the way of our hobby time. Many of us are looking on B-town, auction sites, and locally, to fulfill our hobby needs at the best price. Who wants to pass up a great deal on an auction site when our potential trade partner is on his 4th adjustment, to the second version, over a week long period, to the possible original trade, before making a firm acknowledgement to the agreement.
(yes, that sentence looks like the last trade I had fall apart!)

I see people talking about how long a time to wait before trashing someone on this site. I once had a sale on ebay for several auctions, worth a couple hundred dollars, of model kits. The guy fell off the earth right after the auctions concluded. I followed all the auction rules concerning contact and eventually called the buyer. I received the message that his answering service was full. Something told me to wait. 8 weeks later I get a call from his family that he had been in a car accident and would be returning from the hospital soon. He still wanted the items and we concluded our sale.

My most recent was with one of the highest Feedback ratings I've seen on B-town. No hard feelings, But at my age I don't have time to spend days or weeks to create a trade. I'd rather be gaming with my limited free time.
Remember, people are excited when they first contact you about a sale or trade. The longer you drag it out, the more off site variables or even loss of interest work their way into the the deal.

If someone breaks the rules, and federal law, post them on the bad trader list. Lets not get into the grey areas of what constitutes too long, too many changes, family problems, financial emergencies, etc.

Just keep it simple, read the guys feedback before you make the deal!
If he has no feedback, avoid large and costly trades up front. Break the deal into smaller parts for shipment or have them ship first.

Sincerely,

Jim Denberger

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JohnHwangBT ( 180 )
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Location: SoCal, USA!

Post by JohnHwangBT » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:59 pm

Plarz wrote:Say I'm trading you my A, B and C for your X, Y and Z. When one of us feels the trade has been finalized, we grab a link at the top of every page (like the Post a Trade Ref link) and do this (say I'm filling it out):

I fill in your username or e-mail

I fill in a text field what I'm doing for my part: A, B and C

I fill in your part: X and Y

(optional section?) I fill in our agreed time period: ship within a week.

I hit submit. Now, in your inbox you get a nice little mail that says that I have sent you a trade agreement.
There is no need for an automated form / message generator to do this. Just make one of your own and use it.

For example:
Hi!

From your note above, the Land Raider (with Crusader bitz) trade for beakie heads and BT bitz (crusader & mk.4 helmets, tabard chests) seems to be a deal. As I understand things:

You will send:
- 13 beakie helmets
- 25 BT crusader & mk.4 helmets
- 25 BT tabards chests
- 50 BT tactical shoulderpads
- 10 BT BP&CCW sets

I will send:
- 1 Land Raider (built)
- 1 complete set Land Raider Crusader bitz


I suggest the following to minimize possible problems:
1. You ship the to me via USPS w/ Delivery Confirmation
2. You e-mail the DC# to me.
3. I confirm receipt.
4. I ship the to you via USPS w/ Delivery Confirmation
5. I e-mail the DC# to you.
6. I confirm receipt.
7. We exchange Feedback.
I generally ship within 2 days of receipt.

I find that regular First Class is about a day slower in shipping compared to Priority, and that Delivery Confirmation usually helps in preventing shipments from getting "lost" by the Post Office. So far, this kind of process has worked very well, but am open to any changes you might like.


If this works for you, or if you have any questions / suggestions, please let me know and we'll work them out together.

Regards,

/John
I send an e-mail like this every single time I think I have a deal on Bartertown:
- basic description of the deal
- specify exactly the items / payment
- suggest process / timeline
- requirement for other party to confirm / negotiate
I find that keeping everything clear is a real help.

So far, I've done 50+ trades on Bartertown without a hitch. Or a form to fill in.

If you need it, I give you permission to use my form letter as a baseline for your form.
Feedback as "JohnHwangBT" on Bartertown

Any Negatives or Neutrals? *You* ship first, regardless of rating!

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Morlock-Bloodletter ( 34 )
Site Admin
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Location: Arizona

Post by Morlock-Bloodletter » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:04 am

Lowballing is not the topic for this forum or this thread.

This forum is simple. "backouts" but it's such a broad word... hard for some to understand so let me be more specific as to avoid further unnecessary deconstruction of what Lin was more than clear about.

IF one party agrees to a trade and then disappears with no communication... that is the backout that fits this forum.

You then use the SAME rules for the BTR forum to format your post here.

No lowballing, no lowballers and no "<not smart>" of anything. This forum was created specifically for this BECAUSE they were making the BTR forum cluttered and some didn't feel that "no contact back outs" were BTR material. We the ADMIN listened and decided to make the change.

Now, this way (again for those unable to get the clear message behind this) if you don't WANT to see the back out traders then you can avoid this forum all together, is that so hard? Seriously?

Now, I am going to lock this thread to guarantee that no one will go further off topic.

If you don't agree with this forum then don't POST IN IT and you certainly DON'T have to open it up and read anyone's posts who DO use it.

Have a super day guys!

PS: I don't know if anyone else has seen it yet but there is a "hall of shame" forum coming that will be listing easy lists of names of those that have been banned or suspended or broke deals etc....
Oh yeah... That was the topic huh? Wait... Why are we "getting back" to something that has nothing to "get back" to??? Isn't this topic in existance and well, fully operational as it stands? What is there to get back to? Without our "off-topic" (which I don't agree on since all the topics brought up so far have been on par with "bad trading behavior") discussion this thread would be empty.... =)
This thread is about the rules of THIS forum. This thread is not about "bad traders" in general therefore it is very much OFF TOPIC and will remained locked until such time as we feel it warrants reactivation, if we have your permission oh wise one. I mean maybe we might not ever get to the level of knowledge you possess on trading but we could at least try to obtain your elitest level, if you would allow us.
RULES OF POSTING ON BARTERTOWN ARE FOUND HERE

viewforum.php?f=44

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