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peacemystic ( 720 )
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Post by peacemystic » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:49 pm

I don't know how something so Simple is being so misunderstood,or why this new section is even an issue.,seems like a great idea to me.
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Post by porkuslime » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:57 pm

I agree with peacemystic..

wondering WHY all the queries.. are you folks planning pre-emptive rules-lawyering?

I think this forum is for flat out trade backouts..

heck, if Trader A starts posting ALL aggravating trades that he has going on, backouts/misccommunications/etc.. then what I think *I* will be doing is reconsidering trading with Trader A at all..

-Porkuslime
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If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

I use the Unofficial Porkuslime Trading Guidelines - if you have way less refs.. you ship first.

Folks I am awaiting a ref from.. Zack

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J35T3R.us ( 84 )
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Post by J35T3R.us » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:09 pm

porkuslime wrote: I think this forum is for flat out trade backouts..
You're correct, no one is arguing what this forum is for(at least if they were I believe its been settled). We(or *I*) are(am) merely wondering why JUST backing out, and why not for multiple NON-bad trader-worthy behaviors??? Why limit this forum to 1 of the many behaviors multiple traders find offensive, but not enough so to deem the person in question a quote "bad trader." And aim simply at making the community aware of some possible questions to ask the person in question to make sure they know what they are getting(into).
porkuslime wrote: ...backouts/misccommunications/etc...
You, yourself just said you know what this forum is for(backouts), yet give "miscommunications/ect..." as a possible reason for ending a trade with someone. Well, where do you document the reasoning behind prematurely ending the trade process or trade talks, thus perhaps even aggravating the person you are trading with. There needs to be a place where you can expain and DOCUMENT why you called off a trade, or why you would like to inform others of watching out for someone based on your personal experience, but do NOT want disiplinary action taken on the person you were trading with. If the miscommunication leads to a backout, then yeah, they'll belong here. But what if the miscommunication leads to a wrong trade, that is not a back-out, its a miscommunication, which should be included in the bigger "WARNINGS" thread...

AKA: "This person's primary language is French, and speaks very little English. If you're going to trade with them, make sure you know what exactly is going on. I had a trade with this guy and we ended up sending eachother the wrong miniatures because we were not on the same page."

By the way, the above goes for ALL TYPES of miscommunications(NOT TARGETTING THE FRENCH, sorry lol), you guys have all had your miscommunications...

AKA: Deal was my Man-o-War Shocktrooper for your Eldar Jetbike, and you sent me a Man-o-War Demolition Corps)...

Miscommunication...

NOT A BAD TRADER if they own up to it, and resend the correct figure... Just put that here: if someone had a problem with a trader before they can post here and there will be a pattern. If that person is in question AGAIN after this trade by someone else, there will have been two/three documented cased of this person confusing the trades and it will now be a problem to keep in mind when trading with this person.

I'm only here to get this justified, in my short time here(a week of so, I've made 6 deals... I work fast... I know what I want, I know what I can get it for, and I know how to get it...) 4 of my trades are complete. Done. 1 is in current process, money has been sent, product has been sent, awaiting confirmation of RECEIPT of items... And the last deal was just "officiallized" 10min ago. I just sent paypal, he recieved, and I await confirmation he sent his stuff, most likely tomorrow or the day after, I'm in no rush...

What does all this have to do with anything? Well, in the 2 weeks I've been here, I've MADE and HAD roughly 20-30 offers (I deal in Magic cards, warmachine, hordes, and whatever else I feel like doing), notice only 6 have panned out. Granted, I have a couple offers currently out there awaiting response, so I will subtrack 5 or so from my 20-30, including my 6 completed deals, taking me to roughly 9-19 DUDS...

In those 9-19 duds, there's been 2-3 from the same person on differnt items of mine, all lowballs I simply said no thank-you to. Easy enough right? If that same person PMs me again with another lowball, maybe two more. That person would end up here. Another deal I had going was an unofficial backout, since it was ONE PM away from complete and then the trade was mutually withdrawn, even though I really wanted to proceed. The other 5-10 or so offers were simple: "No thanks" or "Not interested in trading for that" "Or, oh you live outside US, sorry no thanks." or "Nah, don't need anymore of those peticular figures, anything else you have? Oh you have those too? Dang, too bad I already got those... Thanks anyways, maybe nexttime."

So out of those 20 or so replies, only 2 of them were people I would consider posting SOMEWHERE.... The problem is... WHERE DO YOU POST THEM?!?!? They're not BAD TRADERS, they obviously have good refs, the obviously have made good deals before... They never backed out, they aren't deadbeats, but perhaps their names needs to be tossed out to be discussed if multiple people have had "lowballs" or "bad offers" or "time-wasted" chats with them... You see where I am going with this.

All in all? Sure this thread could get somewhere. But I do believe it should be combined into a new thread for all sorts of bad trade behavior that is not sevre enough to lable the offender a BAD TRADER, but simply, someone to "watch out for." And perhaps get feedback from others who have dealt with the person in question.

-love ya'll


*poof*
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Post by porkuslime » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:23 pm

J35T3R.us wrote:
porkuslime wrote: ...backouts/misccommunications/etc...
You, yourself just said you know what this forum is for(backouts), yet give "miscommunications/ect..." as a possible reason for ending a trade with someone.
Umm.. maybe I miscommunicated.

I mean, and will try to say better..

if a Trader, call him Trader A, starts to post all his "Not quite BTR worthy issues" with other traders here, then I would look a bit more warily at dealing with Trader A myself.

I did NOT say that a miscommunication was a valid reason or potential reason to end a trade in progress.

-Porkuslime
2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

If you don't have your Location listed in your User Control Panel, why not take a second and update it? It will let your trading partners know where you are from the beginning.

I use the Unofficial Porkuslime Trading Guidelines - if you have way less refs.. you ship first.

Folks I am awaiting a ref from.. Zack

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Post by maple » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:27 pm

@J35T3R.us
It seems like you are taking the idea a bit too far. Backing out of a deal in a not nice/ non-responsive fashion is much different than low-balling a fellow trader.

@everybody
I think some folks are taking the idea too far. If you start nit picking every trade, this forum will be filled with a bunch of useless threads about how "Maple's paint jobs are really a 3 out of 10, rather than his claimed 5 out of 10" or "Maple was not fast enough with his email/ PM responses. It took him 24 hours to reply, and I expect a 4 hour or less response time."
When it boils down to it, you should make your trade expectations known up front if you have certain expectations from a fellow trader. But at the same time, traders can not expect people to be happy with them if they drag their feet and don't mail their packages/ money out in a timely fashion..... and no, 3 weeks is not timely.

Although I agree that backouts (at least the kind we are talking about in this thread) are annoying and do potentially cause a loss of money. I am not sure if this is a proper way of handling them, or if something should be added to their Trade Refs (maybe a no +/ - flag of some sort) indicating that they backed out of a trade without clueing in the other person.

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Post by J35T3R.us » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:04 pm

porkuslime wrote: if a Trader, call him Trader A, starts to post all his "Not quite BTR worthy issues" with other traders here, then I would look a bit more warily at dealing with Trader A myself.
But admit, while looking at Trader A's threads and noticing you have dealt with one or more of HIS "problematic" traders and you infact remembered having similar problems when you were trading with them. If you can find just ONE of his threads that have someone you dealt with and AGREE with Trader A's complaint, then IT WORKED!!! His thread(s) got someone NOTICED!!! Granted, I completely agree posting random small-time stuff will be overwhelming, again, RULES, REGULATIONS, and CONSEQUENCES PLEASE!!!

Whistle-blowers and wolf-criers would be looked down upon, but simply not trading with someone because they've had complaints about someone else... That's like raising the car-insurance of a person who has been in a few accidents but NEVER been at FAULT.

Again, I bring up the regulation of the thread and needing rules for posting about people, which is kind of what most of us are getting at.

Also, I highly highly doubt a "combined" thread of all types of suspicious bad-behaviors will be any worse than a thread based solely on ONE bad behavior, since all bad-behaviors are, well...bad...


maple wrote:It seems like you are taking the idea a bit too far. Backing out of a deal... ...is much different than low-balling...
HOW?!?!?!?! BOTH are bad behaviors! Granted... Now, bare with me here. Granted a single low-ball does not justify the response one would get from a backout, a backout is much much more severe than a low-ball offer, I agree, but a "Backer-Outer" (we'll call them, I sooo just coined that term) is not more severe than a "Low Baller." Both titles assigned to someone are bad in the trade world. I'm not talking about a single low-ball. I'm talking about someone who is a known low-baller confirmed with multiple peeps... AKA, the POINT of a "warning" thread.


You guys MUST UNDERSTAND... I am not saying just start whistle-blowing... Don't just start posting 3-4x a day in the "WARNING" thread about every single low-ball offer you get, every single person who asks you if you'll send to Canada when you page says "NO INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING", every single time someone says your prices are bad, every single time someone takes more than 2-3 days to reply... Come on guys, play along here... If someone lowballs you, ignore it, if they low ball you again say: "I said no to your first offer, this one is just as bad, no thanks." And if they low-ball you again in a couple weeks and you can remember their name... Post them in the "WARNING" thread as see if anyone else had "run-ins" with this person. This will give you a general idea that they are a low-baller. Granted, people may still trade with them, but at least they'd know what to expect.

maple wrote: I think some folks are taking the idea too far.
Whose to say whats to far in a thread not using its own set of rules? (Using another thread's rules, aka why two threads???)
maple wrote: If you start nit picking every trade, this forum will be filled with a bunch of useless threads
If there are rules on what to knit-pick, and what not-to-knit pick then it shouldn't be a problem... If you are an asshat and post every little detail about everything YOU YOURSELF WILL BE THE ONE IN QUESTION, just like porkuslime mentioned.
maple wrote: When it boils down to it, you should make your trade expectations known up front if you have certain expectations from a fellow trader.
O.o I like that... I'm going to add that to my "rules" section on my trade pages...

Rule #(whatever): Here are my trade expectations up front... ect ect...

maple wrote: or if something should be added to their Trade Refs (maybe a no +/ - flag of some sort)
/agreed - already suggested.

A reference number next to you name means little until you click on it and explore the individual refs... Instead, make it a reference bracket with your positive reference number in blue and neutral/negative reference number in red. This way you can click on the red number and see why there were negative/neutral ratings left.

That is a much much better way to document backouts rather than have a thread (that has been referred to here as a "stage") that people will be put on the spot in, potentially harming their present and future trades.

INSTEAD, make it all reference based and have an "APPEAL" thread where you can appeal your negative reference... THAT IS WHERE the deadbeat/backout/asshat/flamer/lowballer can appeal, and the referencer can respond with evidence... Granted I already see a problem with this thread since it will take away from teh otehr thread I've been suggesting this whole time(the "WARNING" thread - not that name, but you get the drift). Since it will be like a double thread of multiple posts. Anyways, once again, multiple people questioning thread... NOT QUESTIONING IT'S PRESENCE, but it's ideals...
Last edited by J35T3R.us on Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Adunaphel » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:52 pm

Dude!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

Dude? :shocked:

Dude. :'(

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maple ( 50 )
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Post by maple » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:14 am

The problem with items such as low-balling is that they are very subjective. Items are worth different amounts to different people. Some folks think an OOP mini is worth 2x what they paid for it when they bought it, while other people may only value it at 50% of the original retail price. Unless there is a hard definition of what the actual value is of the OOP mini, then the person sending a 50% (of original retail) offer could be seen as a low-baller.

I would hate to see a couple of overly sensitive people post over and over in this section about "Maple sucks as a trader" (I don't suck, honest :-D ) and give somebody a underserved bad name. Honestly, if you have a problem with a low ball offer, or something similar, put the person on your Do Not Trade list and be done with them.

As every person has a different trade relationship with each other, the guy you claim "sucks" may be a great trader for me. I think if people are too critical, they may miss some good trades on account of a silly little post about the person being a "low-balling" SOB.

-mat

p.s. Although my comments were in direct response to J35T3R.us's post, they are in no way singling him out. I'm just one guy thinking while typing. :mrgreen:

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Post by J35T3R.us » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:44 am

I completely agree Maple (and not singling you out, I was just trying to find a martyr while typing :P ).

The only issue I have here is that a low-ball is a LOW-BALL reguardless...
Its up to the community to decide that. Post it in the "warning" section and see what they think, if they think you are full of it, YOU'RE at risk of becoming a Wolf-Cryer... Reguardless of what something is worth... If you offer me $9 cash for my $10 bill, that is such a fine line that not everyone would accept that its a low-ball. You don't need to know the values of something to determine if someone is a "lowballer." If you post someone is lowballing you, and others have been lowballed by that person before, it doesn't matter what you are selling or what values people are assigning, everyone no matter what product they are selling reconize so and so is a lowballer. This is where they would come together to realize this.
maple wrote:Honestly, if you have a problem with a low ball offer, or something similar, put the person on your Do Not Trade list and be done with them.
I.....couldn't.....agree.....more..... and while we're at it, lets not just limit low-ballers to our "do-not-trade" lists, lets put backouts, deadbeats, and bad traders there too!



Problem is........ Obviously others on this board can't do that and need their "no not trade list" to be a public specticle... Which is why this forum was created. In the end, there is no reason why there should be a "backout" forum and not a "asshat" forum since both are wrong-doing to the trading community...



-Jest


PS: "asshat" is a personal term that some know, some don't. You can pick any name for this so-called "asshat" forum...
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Post by jadefalcon » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:57 am

This section is a GREAT Idea.

I have had tons of Backout trades from mainly NEWBs here in Bartertown.

A trade will be agreed upon. Then weeks later no product. No responses to my e-mails asking if the trade is still on. Nothing.

And days later the same person(s) will post another trade. :lol:

I have no problem with people unable to go through with a trade. But be freaking considerate and say at least 'Something came up.'

At least now we have a section where we can point out these Trollers.

Thanks for the Deadbeats & Backout section.
J

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Post by nosirrahkcaz » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:22 am

I think one thing that would put my fears to rest on this forum is a set of rules that detail specifics, such as the exact amount of time one would have to wait without a response before posting here. i also think that people tighting up their trade practices by sending an email that says at the end of the trade agreement, I agree upon said deal. would also help turn this into a more of a "black and white" issue instead of the grays that would currently exist. Just my thoughts

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Post by MagickalMemories » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:26 am

Jester, you're painting with a pretty wide brush for someone who's been here such a short time.

No offense intended, but you really should stick around a while to get a feel of how BTown runs before telling them how to fix it.

Here is the long & short of it...

Bartertown does not have "bad trade practice" forums and, likely, never will.
That takes things to a micromanagement level where the Admin staff do not likely want to go. HOW we trade is our business, provided we follow the rules.

In the cases at hand, there are 2 rules that matter.
1) Don't scam.
2) Don't back out of a trade after you agree on it.

As has been stated before, THESE are indicative or scammers. The former being obvious and the latter being behavior that has been witnessed to -repeatedly- end in scamming activity.

If someone sends you a lowball, it is NOT something that is reportable or that the Admin staff WANT reported.
Ignore it and go on.
Same for a55hats... etc
If there is repeated a55hattery by an individual, then it is to be reported (via PM) to a Mod or admin, with proof provided, to be handled by them. It is NOT a public issue unless the Admin/Mod team decides to make it one.
Problem is........ Obviously others on this board can't do that and need their "no not trade list" to be a public specticle... Which is why this forum was created.
You couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact, we covered the "public DNT list" issue weeks ago.
In the end, there is no reason why there should be a "backout" forum and not a "asshat" forum since both are wrong-doing to the trading community...
Yes there is and, if you paid attention to those of us who've been here longer than you, you'd know what it is.

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I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

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Post by J35T3R.us » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:52 am

Yeah, because bartertown is sooooo much different than any other online-trading website... Get ahold of yourself... Someone else brought this up earlier thinking it would leave a mark... You're basing my knowledge and legitimacy of the subject on my time being here... That's pathetic, I've been trading online just as much as the next, and *yawn* third time posting this here... The rules are ALL THE SAME... No matter what site you trade on, and for teh most part, btown is one of the more LAX websites operating with many many fewer rules/regulations. Maybe you like it that way, but obviously there are people here(many by the looks of this forum) that want change, want order, want a place to vent their angers after getting screwed...


1) Don't scam.
2) Don't back out of a trade after you agree on it.


Two rules? Yeah nice rule #1... COVERS EVERY RULE KNOWN in trading almost... Why not just have one freaking rule called: "Trade good"



Obviously there needs to be, and IS currently micromanagment going on seeing how there are now individulized threads for individual bad-behaviors(aka this thread).


And this is the third time someone has brought up lowballing not being an issue... WTF said anything about reporting everyone who lowballs you. I have specifically made sure that I covered all my bases in each of my replies, they are crafted very carefully to not get trapped or "asshatted" (not a bad word, don't be afraid)...

I have explained(three times) that a lowball offer or two is not worthy of even responding to through a reply... It is the multiple lowballs that need to be addressed here, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LOW-BALLER and a "BACKEROUTTER" (there's my coined word again). BOTH of them are people we DO NOT WANT AROUND agreed?!?!?

Someone's lowballed you a couple times? Post them in the "warning" thread and see what happens. Multiple replies to your thread saying: Yeah, he lowballed me a couple times too... There we go, USEFUL information in helping this place become a better trading place.





Again, i will go back to my VERY VERY VERY first arguement here...

While this thread may help, it will not solve anything... It needs to be accompanied by a SLEW of threads dedicated to bad-trading behaviors. And what is to happen in the end? LETS END ALL TALKS AND SET THIS FORUM IN MOTION RIGHT NOW.... What happens? A person is called a backeroutter on here and gets confirmed? Then what?!?!?!? he is kicked off the boards? He is ignored? He is exiled? Lol... Nope....

Grats on a useless thread...


IF...and this is a BIG IF... If there is disiplinary action taken against the confirmed backeroutter... He would be confirmed and placed onto the Bad Trader list... So we just made a thread that is just a public debate for another thread?!?!?! I have been saying this since page one of this thread...


THERE's no reason to have this thread if all we are going to do is make a public trial for everyone in question when in the end they are still going to be traded with....

Just gonna make an already SORE subject even worse when people try defending themselves and making themselves and the accuser look stupid... Granted, there could be a couple "asshats" that get caught on here for numerous backouts... But wouldn't you think they should be added to the Bad Trader list instead of to the "Useless Public Debate" forum?

Sorry if I'm being brash, but every other reply in this thread is talking about how there are rules and regulations needed and how people think this forum is just going to cause drama... I point out, it is the FASTEST growing topic on the boards, and has more replies already than some of the games we have for trade on this great trading site...

If we can't even get past the sticky, how are we supposed to get past a post? And if we do get past it, where does that put us? Anywhere further than we were before? Or simply back where we were before now with spotlights(good or bad) on certain people who in the end remain unaffected from anything in this forum...?



Please don't bring up my "newness" on these boards again, that is a lowblow... How'd you like me saying: "You've been on these boards too LONG to realize what is actually going on." I don't need to be a town elder to figure out that the village I just rode into is off-balance... Cmon man...
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Post by Anglacon » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:58 am

MagickalMemories wrote:Jester, you're painting with a pretty wide brush for someone who's been here such a short time.
That does not make his ideas or opinions less than yours. Be they right or wrong, he is entitled to them and allowed to put them up for all to see. you of all people should appreciate that. :)


Post count does NOT = who is right.

I would never have thought you would be so elitest.

Anyway... Back on topic...

My only concern with this whole forum is that there are no hard and fast rules that apply to when it is ok to publicly humiliate a person.
It is simple enough to fix.

Just make it something like:

If a person agrees to a trade, and addresses are exchanged, and a date for mailing set, and there are NO OTHER emails between you two with changes to the trade, no matter how miniscule, and the trade does not take place, then you may post here.

If you so much as say "I accidently gave you the wrong zip code, here is the right one" a backout does NOT apply, as you changed what was already set. Maybe the other trader does not want to risk trading with someone who cannot remember his zip code!

Something like that, and all will be ok. Leavie it subjective, and there WILL be problems.......

I do not cause....
I merely foretell!
:lol:

-Anglacon
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Post by insidius » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:06 pm

I think it's good that we're discussing this as a community.

Let's try to make sure it keeps being civil so we don't have to lock the thread.


Thanks for the understanding guys.
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