Too many buyers not paying/making excuses for backouts

[ancientsociety]

I could see the cell phone excuse, IF (as so often happens) the buyer didn't subsequently post messages on the forums. In the instance above, the buyer actually had time to post 3 separate army lists on the forums between Tuesday and Sunday....

[MagickalMemories]

I don't think you can leave them a backout if they decide that you want/need too much for shipping. They have to agree to the FINAL transaction and then backout.
At least that is what I have always thought.

I would (somewhat) disagree.

If a buyer writes and says "I'd like to buy X, can you give me postage?", then they haven't committed to purchasing. No backout allowed if they don't want it after hearing the cost. However, If a buyer writes and says they "I will buy X, just give me a total", they have committed to that sale. If they then change their mind/become non-responsive/have an "emergency" and will not pay, then Backout allowed.

I'd say it hinges on the wording and intent of the PM.

Unfortunately, it would not qualify.
A deal is not struck until both parties agree on the main aspects of the deal (price, shipping costs -if any, and who ships first).

Eric

[ancientsociety]

A deal is not struck until both parties agree on the main aspects of the deal (price, shipping costs -if any, and who ships first).

But, the main aspect of a sale (i.e. that the buyer will purchase the product), has been agreed upon by the buyer's statement of "I will buy X, just give me a total".

1. The buyer has agreed to purchase the product
2. The buyer agrees to the postage amount (which I also state clearly in my trade guidelines) EDIT: Note that the buyer does not ask for a postage cost before agreeing, therefore they've agreed to the total postage cost
3. The buyer agrees to pay before shipment is made (again, stated clearly in my trade guidelines)

The buyer has already given their assent to the terms of the sale, a positive response from me with the total price and payment option completes the deal. BTR reporting rules don't specifically state what particular wording needs to be said, simply the intent by both parties that a deal is made - i.e...

this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed

[Imaginos]

I could see the cell phone excuse, IF (as so often happens) the buyer didn't subsequently post messages on the forums. In the instance above, the buyer actually had time to post 3 separate army lists on the forums between Tuesday and Sunday....

Yeah, that's totally off base.

[Adunaphel]

Ancient - I don't see a clearly listed postage cost. I know it's because you can't list it, but you get my point.

Let's say a trader wants to buy a game from me. I have it listed at 60% off retail. The buyer thinks that is great because he can only get it at 40% off at an internet seller. So, he PM's me saying that he wants the game. I then check postal prices and find out that it is going to cost $20 to ship it (which the bigger games will nowadays). I only charge actual shipping (like you do), but now the trader is astonished to find out that he is paying close to retail for the game. Which is not as good a deal as he can get from an online retailer that offers free shipping...

I have had this happen as a buyer and a seller. As a buyer, I felt honor bound to buy the item, but I wasn't happy at all with it. As a seller, I knew how the buyer felt and told him that was fine and I wish that I could do bulk shipping to save on it.

A finalized transaction means many things to many different people. This is one of the many reasons I strongly dislike the backout forum and I don't peruse it at all.

Karl

[DoggNewTrix]

I can totally see both sides, though I think the main point was to get an offer and then the buyer drop off the face of the earth. A simple "No I can get it for less elswhere" would be enough.

[ancientsociety]

Aincient - I don't see a clearly listed postage cost. I know it's because you can't list it, but you get my point.

There is a world of difference between "I'd be interested in Item A. What would postage cost?" and "I will buy Item A, just give me a total." The former is making a sale dependent upon an add'l cost. The latter is the seller acceding to the postage cost without being quoted a specific price and, more importantly, is them agreeing to their side of the sale.

[MagickalMemories]

A deal is not struck until both parties agree on the main aspects of the deal (price, shipping costs -if any, and who ships first).

But, the main aspect of a sale (i.e. that the buyer will purchase the product), has been agreed upon by the buyer's statement of "I will buy X, just give me a total".

1. The buyer has agreed to purchase the product
2. The buyer agrees to the postage amount (which I also state clearly in my trade guidelines) EDIT: Note that the buyer does not ask for a postage cost before agreeing, therefore they've agreed to the total postage cost
3. The buyer agrees to pay before shipment is made (again, stated clearly in my trade guidelines)

The buyer has already given their assent to the terms of the sale, a positive response from me with the total price and payment option completes the deal. BTR reporting rules don't specifically state what particular wording needs to be said, simply the intent by both parties that a deal is made - i.e...

this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed

I understand your point, and I understand your feelings. I happen to agree with you on how bad it sucks.
Regardless, however, our standard has been, since right after the backout forum was initially created, that it's not considered a finalized agreement until the cost and shipping specifics have been hammered out.

Eric

[ancientsociety]

I understand your point, and I understand your feelings. I happen to agree with you on how bad it sucks.
Regardless, however, our standard has been, since right after the backout forum was initially created, that it's not considered a finalized agreement until the cost and shipping specifics have been hammered out.

Ok, so what's to prevent certain buyers from abusing this policy?

As a seller, if a buyer writes saying "I will buy Item X", once I respond with the total - that item is on hold. If I pass over another deal because the buyer never gets back to me, now I am out two deals potentially. How is this fair to sellers who hold items?

On the flipside of that, if Buyer #1 writes and says they will buy item X (and the seller responds with a total), and the seller subsequently sells that item to another Buyer; would Buyer #1 be prevented from posting a Backout?

[3eland]

I understand your point, and I understand your feelings. I happen to agree with you on how bad it sucks.
Regardless, however, our standard has been, since right after the backout forum was initially created, that it's not considered a finalized agreement until the cost and shipping specifics have been hammered out.

Ok, so what's to prevent certain buyers from abusing this policy?

As a seller, if a buyer writes saying "I will buy Item X", once I respond with the total - that item is on hold. If I pass over another deal because the buyer never gets back to me, now I am out two deals potentially. How is this fair to sellers who hold items?

On the flipside of that, if Buyer #1 writes and says they will buy item X (and the seller responds with a total), and the seller subsequently sells that item to another Buyer; would Buyer #1 be prevented from posting a Backout?

I kind of have to agree with what ancientsociety is trying to get at, now this is not related to this forum but when I was selling some stuff on kijiji (furniture, games, random stuff) I had a guy say he wanted some of said stuff and he would come by Wednesday. I got a few more emails that very same day and had to tell them it was pending for another person (even though I put on the add *Pending* because people don't like to read). Well, the guy told me Wednesday he was no longer interested and when I contacted the others saying I still had the stuff they were no longer interested. Kind of ticked me off because there was potentially more than one person interested but the couple of days delay turned them away.

However at the same time I can see what MM is trying to say, hammering out EVERYTHING is needed especially when your not going to be face to face with the trader looking everything over before money/items are exchanged and should then be the terms of a finalized deal.

Guess the best thing you can get from the experience is who NOT to trade with.

[MagickalMemories]

I understand your point, and I understand your feelings. I happen to agree with you on how bad it sucks.
Regardless, however, our standard has been, since right after the backout forum was initially created, that it's not considered a finalized agreement until the cost and shipping specifics have been hammered out.

Ok, so what's to prevent certain buyers from abusing this policy?

As a seller, if a buyer writes saying "I will buy Item X", once I respond with the total - that item is on hold. If I pass over another deal because the buyer never gets back to me, now I am out two deals potentially. How is this fair to sellers who hold items?

On the flipside of that, if Buyer #1 writes and says they will buy item X (and the seller responds with a total), and the seller subsequently sells that item to another Buyer; would Buyer #1 be prevented from posting a Backout?

Nothing is to keep them from abusing it. Look at the positive, though. There was a time when even the Bacout forum didn't exist, and you had to just deal with backouts, too. They weren't reportable or viable for references.

As for the flipside... Yes. Unless you put some sort of deal-solidifying statement in the PM, you're covered.

The best option is (a) to reply with the total price and verbiage that the deal is not solid until they reply with an approval of the price & reaffirm their intent to purchase and (b) inform them that you're not holding the items for them until you receive such a statement. That's what I do, most of the time, and it works wonderfully.

Eric

[Imaginos]

Well I guess it is good to post the deadbeats / backouts. See here viewtopic.php?f=103&p=366444#p366444

[mardaddy601]

I had to "back out" of a potential deal recently myself.

My ad was requesting Fantasy figures for RPG use, and I specifically said, "USA only," in the ad. A gentleman from Canada PMed me asking if I'd reconsider USA-only. I explained that the volume of figures would need to be large enough to warrant the money lost on the discount that instead would go towards excessive (by my opinion) shipping.

He sent the list, and sure enough, he had A LOT that I could use. And even more that I could not use for RPG's but were desirable just for their collector-aspect (mainly Hasslefree stuff, which always resells at a good value.) But after I estimated the decent offer I'd have to make, and realized shipping would run into the $25-$30 range, I had to back off -- I explained it in a PM, and felt bad that he went through the trouble of listing it all, but at the beginning and all the way through it was understood the sale was only a, "maybe."

[Rarenomad]

What I do in these situations is explain to them that until they pay that the items in question are still up for sale/trade, if they are ok with that, then I would send them a shipping quote. If they agree to that at this point, then you are both off the hook and avoids losing time waiting on joe schmo to pony up his part.

[MagickalMemories]

This thread is threadomantastic (5 months). LOL

Eric