GW's Space Marine trademark debacle

[DroopyMcCool49]

I am sure many are aware of this, but for those that are not, this is a GOOD time. The whole issue has clearly out of GW's hands at this point and the bad PR is something that the company simply does not need. The quagmire has now even made it onto the front page of the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003

Anyone here wish to pontificate?

[kturock]

any press is good press if it increases sales.

it might be another lawsuit GW loses. then they'll raise the prices of minis and books to cover it.. hmm $60 codexes, anyone?

[MagickalMemories]

Moved to the right forum.

Eric

[Garlicson2]

Yes, I've herd of the whole thing about it. The author apparentlly capitalised Space Marine on the front of the book. It wouldn't be a problem if it was lower cased, or used some alternative title like Finding the Space Commando, Galaxy Marine, Star Marine, ect.

Marvel and DC have done this before, they've copyrighted SuperHero, and actually sued someone with that word in a title. If I were to publish a book called "Finding the Super Man", DC wouldn't be happy. This of course can be avoided by lower casing super man, so it won't confuse consumers with the DC hero.

As of right now, I'm neutral in this senario, and I'm not going to jump in the GW hate bandwagon, neither would I support the author. Will GW win? Maybe. But the way I see it, the writer will more than likely to resolve this by changing the title and do a little tweek in the story, and everyone will be satisfied and call it a day.

Just my thought.

-Johnny

[3eland]

Yes, I've herd of the whole thing about it. The author apparentlly capitalised Space Marine on the front of the book. It wouldn't be a problem if it was lower cased, or used some alternative title like Finding the Space Commando, Galaxy Marine, Star Marine, ect.

Marvel and DC have done this before, they've copyrighted SuperHero, and actually sued someone with that word in a title. If I were to publish a book called "Finding the Super Man", DC wouldn't be happy. This of course can be avoided by lower casing super man, so it won't confuse consumers with the DC hero.

As of right now, I'm neutral in this senario, and I'm not going to jump in the GW hate bandwagon, neither would I support the author. Will GW win? Maybe. But the way I see it, the writer will more than likely to resolve this by changing the title and do a little tweek in the story, and everyone will be satisfied and call it a day.

Just my thought.

-Johnny

One thing to note is that titles of books are automatically capitalized, I have never seen one that has been lower case letters (minus 2-3 letter words like "of", "the", "and" etc), however I could be wrong but I've read a lot of books....
Also, after reading the book description "Pollyanna meets Starship Troopers in this fast, screenplay-like novel about a 30-something Marine private called out of retirement to join the war against the crabs. But shattered morale is the least of her company's problems, and their survival may hinge on an unlikely friendship forged between an alien weapons designer and a mother-turned-warrior...."
Couple things to address:
Female Space Marines.... doesn't exist in GW universe
"Pollyanna meets Starship Troopers"... Seems her inspiration was more of the book/movie of the well known (and to some people origin of GW Space Marine as seen in the Starship Trooper books) comedy we all know and love
"the war against the crabs" - I guess Tyranids COULD fall under some sort of crab or crustacean, although since they rent the Aliens IP I'd imagine that would be more of their focus.
After reading forum postings from people who actually read the book; seems it has nothing to do with the GW universe and is more written in the form of a play or drama than a novel.

I am also neutral in this matter, the author did nothing wrong in my books, however people tend to hate GW before knowing all the facts and history behind the situation. GW holds a trademark on the word set "Space Marine" when it comes to miniatures, toys, and anything in such category. However in the UK, due to certain circumstances and trademark laws, they MAY take legal action on publications involving such trademarks as seen in their trademark laws (can be found here: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/pro-types/pro-tm/t-law.htm ). This does not hold true in the US though as UK laws obviously are not global and Freedom of Speech with every other US rights/laws to do with writing go in favour of the author; however if they were to allow the "usage" of their "Trademarked word set to do with toys and miniatures" in publication without trying to defend it in some way, they would be opening up the possibility of many people challenging the situation in their own forms.

As written on their legal page "The reason we need a policy for IP is actually fairly straightforward. The laws that govern intellectual property are such that we have to make a visible effort to actively police and protect our rights or risk losing them, and if we lose control of our IP rights then we lose the ability to create the cool, high-quality hobby wargames that we are famous for." more can be read about their IP, trademarks, legal, and everything else on the matter here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... eMode=true

From my understanding after reading the full legal information on their site, they are almost pushed into challenging these things or risk losing their rights all together; that's why they crack down on third party sites or people who make counterfeit models.

Without knowing the whole story behind the News coverage only makes a person's views and opinions one sided. No one cares why GW is doing it, they just blame them for not being fair and trying to crush the little guys. Reading into why they have to push these things, in my opinion, is a must before automatically taking shots at GW. Remember, news don't like to show everything, they like to show what will make them the money/what the consumers want to see.

Now, before anyone thinks I am a GW drone (lol) I am not, I just think people need to read more about a situation than what they see in the news/on forums. There is a ton that goes on behind the scenes when it resolves around cases such as this. Personally, I don't see anything happening with the matter in favour of GW but fortunately for the author her book is selling even better due to people buying it solely to go against GW. I doubt I will pick it up as it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing I'm interested in (and at 6 bucks for an e-copy is a little high for my tastes for something I know nothing about story/writer wise).

I dunno, that' my 2.5 cents worth

[MEDEVL]

I'll preface my statements with the fact that I hate GWs business policies with a passion. I think the day they went public the soul of GW died and "the hobby" as we knew it ceased to exist. But even before that this spectre of IP had already started to crop its head and no matter what anyone says to the contrary GW are simply wrong in their assertions. They may even be proven right under the scope of law but they will still be in the wrong. Why you ask? Because they have spent decades "borrowing" ideas and concepts from other sources to work into various product lines and then turn around and fight tooth and nail to protect "their" IP. It's ridiculous and I have always wished some other big name would nuke them for it. I would love for Lucasfilm to have gone after GW for the IG Sentinal design or Orion pictures to have sued them over "Sly Marbo". But the truth is in the grand scheme GW is a bit player not even worthy of notice to those huge companies. But it doesn't stop them from being the bully on their own block and that's what I'd love to see change. It's why I am firmly behind Chapterhouse Studios in their legal fight with GW and the reason that I sincerely hope that the case makes it to trial and GW get crucified by the jury in a precedent setting case.

[spiralingcadaver]

If you're naming something Space Marine, in this age, you're probably hoping for publicity from it: either search results that give you a bump in traffic or a suit and the publicity from that.

Having published comics and knowing a number of authors and aspiring authors, if you're in it legitimately, you're looking to make a name for yourself/your book/ your series.

An example: I knew someone writing a fantasy book. They started reading Game of Thrones, realized that a number of details were, coincidentally, unfortunately close to stuff from the Game of Thrones setting. So as to not appear too close, those details got changed where they could be, and the ones that remain are sporadic enough to not be concerning.

This goes doubly for titles-- If I was writing a book with the working title, "A Tournament of Thrones," and I had never heard of A Game of Thrones, if I spent 10 minutes on google (I actually tried for about that many seconds, with success), I'd find a whole bunch of suggestions related to a popular series. Then, even if my title fit perfectly, I'd swear a lot, then, wanting to distinguish myself from the popular series, try to figure out a distinct title that works as well.

Similarly, it makes me think that the author in this case is either intentionally trying to get some publicity or they're too lazy or ignorant to react to, or consider, the problems associated with said title. Harsh, but, that's how I feel...



No, it isn't right that a company try to maintain copyright on a common term, but I also don't think that using a similar title to a well-known company is very creatively legitimate.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

If you're naming something Space Marine, in this age, you're probably hoping for publicity from it: either search results that give you a bump in traffic or a suit and the publicity from that.

I think that this is patently false.

Among a certain segment of the population, GW and Space Marines are inextricably linked. For the larger mass, a Space Marine is a Marine (Royal or US) in Space. Stormtrooper is much more widely recognized--and not even the litigious former Lucas seems to have attacked GW's usage thereof.

An example: I knew someone writing a fantasy book. They started reading Game of Thrones, realized that a number of details were, coincidentally, unfortunately close to stuff from the Game of Thrones setting. So as to not appear too close, those details got changed where they could be, and the ones that remain are sporadic enough to not be concerning.

This goes doubly for titles-- If I was writing a book with the working title, "A Tournament of Thrones," and I had never heard of A Game of Thrones, if I spent 10 minutes on google (I actually tried for about that many seconds, with success), I'd find a whole bunch of suggestions related to a popular series. Then, even if my title fit perfectly, I'd swear a lot, then, wanting to distinguish myself from the popular series, try to figure out a distinct title that works as well.

This is an artistic decision that one might make in order to differentiate oneself or carve a different niche. But fantasy and scifi are both replete with overlapping names involving Thrones, Dragons, Lances, Swords, Knights, Castles, &c. GRRM did not, for example, author Frozen Throne, Clash of the Warrior Kings, Food for the Crows, Dragon Dance, or Winter Winds.

Now, if your book is a gloss of GoT with a similar title, that can be a problem. But Joseph Campbell says it's all going to come together somehow, anyway.

[MagickalMemories]

I've got to disagree a bit, SC. I find it quite plausible that there are sci-fi writers out there who are wholly unfamiliar with the entire 40K setting. The same thing goes for WHFB and fantasy writers.

Eric

[Tarius]

I had not heard of this but it doesnt suprise me one bit. GW's lawyers are gung ho when it comes to "protecting" their intellectual property.
Of funny note, better not tell them that the Clean&Clear oil absorbing pads contains "ultramarines". haha I am entirely serious, this is one of the ingredients.

[spiralingcadaver]

I've got to disagree a bit, SC. I find it quite plausible that there are sci-fi writers out there who are wholly unfamiliar with the entire 40K setting. The same thing goes for WHFB and fantasy writers.

Eric

I'm not saying that an author is obligated to know everything about everything (okay, that might have been a bit of a hyperbole), but that, in the age of the internet, rudimentary research is so easy that an author should be obligated to do that. Every single time I've started a creative project that will see any distribution, I've taken those 15 seconds to double-check that there isn't something popular with a similar title that would cause conflicts.

If there was a book where, somewhere in the middle, a character had the same name as a short story that didn't appear in the first 4-5 pages of google searching, that would be one thing, but having part of your title be the same as a major franchise (regardless of medium) is, like I said, either an attention grab or negligent.

Imagine if someone wrote a book featuring Lego, an engineer with a symbolic name based on the Italian word. This hypothetical book is about his apprentice, and is a coming of age story, paralleling building yourself up, building a skillset, and building stuff. It's called "Building with Lego," and shows multicolored bricks and gears on the cover, because it's young adult or for kids or w/e. Maybe it even features a drawing of a little guy made out of rectangles and cylinders because the apprentice was learning about breaking down complex forms into basic geometry. The author knows nothing of Lego as a company, having grown up, I don't know, somewhere Lego isn't distributed. Would you call the author completely innocent, regardless of the fact that information about Lego is hugely available, just because they didn't take the time to double-check the problem?

[MagickalMemories]

In the context you mentioned, I sure would. I don't think it's necessary, at all, for someone to do research to be sure nobody has had their idea before; not in that context. That said, though, I think your example was a bit more extreme and specific than what we're discussing. The ideas of sci-fi space marines in powered armor fighting off the alien menace is a far more prolific topic for novels than a Lego block. It's something that was around for decades before GW tried to appropriate it as their sole property. To me, that's like saying that someone wanting to write a story that involved Elves and Dwarves had to make sure that theirs was wholly dissimilar from anything Tolkien wrote. As if, by using a term, he's the only one who could ever use it again.

Space Marines, as a name, title or concept, aren't anything GW should reasonably expect to have provenance or providence over.

Eric

[spiralingcadaver]

Well, I believe that, actually, if you want to write a story about elves and dwarves, they should be unmistakable from Tolkien's, but that's because I believe that if a creative work isn't attempting to be original it doesn't deserve to exist, and that part of working towards originality is the responsibility to know what's out there: for me, ignorance is not an excuse. There's enough dreck out there that making something for the sake of making more isn't a reason.

...so, I think we can agree to disagree on that...

Though, I agree that Space Marines isn't something GW should have any right to. To make it absolutely clear, I'm not arguing for GW, I'm arguing against whoever made that rather trashy sounding book.

[MagickalMemories]

Understood. : )

Eric

[bluemeenie]

some of my most sacred books were trashy.....but again I was 14 and hadn't made it to second base yet.