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What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

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MagickalMemories ( 742 )
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by MagickalMemories » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:07 pm

Nightlord, I do see what you're saying. I only partially disagree (the indexes were very clear up front as being temporary... and I doubt any single one will be obsolete in the first year).

The thing is, though, you're talking about policy vs. mechanics.

Hate/dislike/rage at the company. Hate/dislike/rage at their policies. Many (most?) won't argue the point with you. Even those that disagree you will find to, for the most part, understand where you're coming from (IMO). The only real bone anyone is picking here is that this thread is about the rule system, only. I'll sit and (mostly) praise the rules changes. Most of them I'm finding I like, with only a couple that bothered me (played my first game this weekend). The closest thing to a compliment that you'll get from me about their business policies is to compliment these things:
1) Making the most basic rules a free download.
2) The OPEN communication about what changes were coming, instead of their "secrecy or death" policies of old.
3) Making the indexes available on day 1, combining the armies in them as intelligently as possible, and only pricing them at $25 each.
4) Non-GW employees as playtesters.

As for the rules system, I do think this will attract new players. My nine year old daughter desperately wants to learn this game. Once *I* learn it, I'll be teaching her. LOL I wouldn't have dreamed of even bothering with 6e or 7e. I'd have just made up my own dice rolling system with her.

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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:36 pm

4) Quick and timely FAQ Updates
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by MagickalMemories » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:55 pm

So far... LOL
(And wouldn't that be #5)

Eric
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:20 pm

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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by spiralingcadaver » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:57 pm

pretre wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:06 pm
They were very clear about what the indexes were for. I have no idea, as MM said, why a store would order that many indexes or why their sales rep wouldn't have warned them. That sounds like the LGS had no idea what they were doing.
I don't think "very clear" is very accurate. I've been casually following 8th developing, and was never perfectly sure what their 8th codecies would look like in relationship to the index, and based on various arguments around the previewed Marine one, a lot of players aren't acting like they expected what did happen.

I'm not saying that NL's LGS was deceived, but GW's been really spinning the hell out of this new edition, which at first looked like transparency, but to me looks like, well, spin, which is inherently designed to sell what they've got, and that LGS I think fell more for the spin than making a bad decision based on full information. Personally, I was expecting a lot more longevity out of the index, and am glad my schedule meant I haven't picked up a copy of it.

With the currently muddled edition shift, I'm not really sure what I'm going to get, because I don't know what rules the codex has and if it'll be worth it to me to get the index for the other entries, and either way I think it's been handled pretty opaquely and doesn't feel like it has much thought towards the future.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:36 pm

I don't get the confusion. The indexes are just like Black Book 3rd. It's to tide you over until the codexes come out. And, as I said previously, they were obviously deeply subsidized books to get folks playing until codexes came out. You're out, at most, $125, which was not even 3 codexes before, for all the rules until Codexes come out.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:37 pm

Launch Announcement (emphasis mine)
Of course! The Indexes! These five books are the most requested things from you guys and gals out there; all of you wanted to be able to use your army with the new edition from day one. No problem.

Between them, these five softback Index books provide rules for every single Warhammer 40,000 Citadel Miniature we sell. They are broken down into themed books: 2 for the Imperium, 1 for the forces of Chaos, and 2 for the xenos races of the galaxy.

To start gaming with your existing army, you just need the box set or the Warhammer 40,000 book and whichever Index book has their datasheets and you’re good to go.

Oh, and don’t worry, this doesn’t mean Orks and Tyranids are now on the same side, it just means they share a book for the moment. In the future, they’ll get their own dedicated codexes.
That was literally their first announcement, that these were a temporary step to get everyone playing until codexes came out.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:43 pm

Also, I think a lot of folks drew the comparison to AoS which got the core rules and then expanded rules as army books came out. I am kind of surprised that anyone thought the indexes were it and we weren't going to get more, updated books later.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by spiralingcadaver » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:28 pm

I guess I wasn't cynical enough to assume they'd be printing the replacements to a bunch of $25 books before they hit the shelves? Maybe I'm not the target audience, but, well, I think it was spun more than you do. As a player without a ton of gaming time, I don't want to dump $25 on an army list I'll get, IDK, a couple games in with before it's obsolete.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:35 pm

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:28 pm
I guess I wasn't cynical enough to assume they'd be printing the replacements to a bunch of $25 books before they hit the shelves? Maybe I'm not the target audience, but, well, I think it was spun more than you do. As a player without a ton of gaming time, I don't want to dump $25 on an army list I'll get, IDK, a couple games in with before it's obsolete.
They're not printing the replacements to those books; they are printing the updates to some portions of those books. Even the Space Marine codex only covers maybe a third of Index Imperium 1 and the index will still be useful for even SM players well into the future because some units are only covered in the index.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by spiralingcadaver » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:36 pm

I guess it makes it better that they're replacing everything they think is functional with nearly-redundant entries but leaving some stuff behind so you're carrying around a book for a few entries?

You don't have an issue with how those books were handled, I do. I think there are far more transparent and less unwieldy ways they could have handled them. They're not going to make me ragequit, but they also dampened a lot of my initial optimism about the edition and how GW would be handling their game and customers.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:59 pm

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:36 pm
I guess it makes it better that they're replacing everything they think is functional with nearly-redundant entries but leaving some stuff behind so you're carrying around a book for a few entries?
They are replacing everything in their current range and leaving legacy entries in the index. That's much better than the old approach of just abandoning legacy entries.
You don't have an issue with how those books were handled, I do. I think there are far more transparent and less unwieldy ways they could have handled them. They're not going to make me ragequit, but they also dampened a lot of my initial optimism about the edition and how GW would be handling their game and customers.
How would you have handled it? Put big red bold type on every book that says 'This book is temporary and will be replaced in 1-24 months'? Created a conversion guide for old codexes so people could try to retrofit their books to 8th edition until their codex came out? Deliberately delayed codex releases in an old-style release schedule so people could feel like they were getting more bang out of their index? Release all the indexes free (my bet is here)? I mean, they're a business, they released price-subsidized books for every army all at once so everyone could play from day one, that's pretty cool.

This seems more like a case of 'nothing GW does is okay'. GW updates codexes one at a time for edition change? "My army never gets updated." GW updates everything all at once? "My army changes too often."

I mean, I'm not trying to be a jerk and I'm not saying GW's perfect, but I think this launch was pretty good and we're getting what we (or at least I) have been asking for: a new, more level playing field with rules for everyone and more detailed rules on a reasonable time schedule.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by spiralingcadaver » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:09 pm

The short version, I think they should have actually made the indexes the core books. It would have been a cheap entry point which allowed new players to choose from a set of similar armies and have a few to choose from/play with. Then, the codexes would cover what the indexes didn't: new entries, army-wide rules, etc. Basically, the index is the basic content, and the codex has fluff, and advanced rules, more variety, and doesn't repeat a huge number of entries, while giving longevity to the core books and lowering the price of the codecies because a lot of material wouldn't need to be repeated (esp. in the broad Marine variants).

It would still have the problem of 2 books, but as you said, their size is unwieldy enough that there are limitations.

That, or figure out a way to go digital like oh-so-many other companies, and have a living rules set with books built around events.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by pretre » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:27 pm

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:09 pm
The short version, I think they should have actually made the indexes the core books. It would have been a cheap entry point which allowed new players to choose from a set of similar armies and have a few to choose from/play with. Then, the codexes would cover what the indexes didn't: new entries, army-wide rules, etc. Basically, the index is the basic content, and the codex has fluff, and advanced rules, more variety, and doesn't repeat a huge number of entries, while giving longevity to the core books and lowering the price of the codecies because a lot of material wouldn't need to be repeated (esp. in the broad Marine variants).

It would still have the problem of 2 books, but as you said, their size is unwieldy enough that there are limitations.

That, or figure out a way to go digital like oh-so-many other companies, and have a living rules set with books built around events.
I think they are going to go digital, eventually, but I think they wanted to get the product out there for people to play.

I can see your point on using them to expand, but I think that this gets you to the point where, for most pure armies, you only need one book, the codex or the index (depending on whether your codex came out yet) which is probably preferable in the long run.
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Re: What do you think about the "NEW" 8th edition changes???

Post by akum » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:36 pm

Perfectly happy, they delivered what they promised 100% with multiple FAQs within the same month.

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