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This is more of a rules/procedure question for 40k games.

I know you are supposed to declare shooting/assault targets before measuring to see if the weapon/unit is in range.
Then you also measure your own movement distances obviously

Are these the only two cases in which you can measure?
Can you say, measure the distances between your own units? (Useful for setting up firing lines with assault absorption gaps in between)
How about when moving near an enemy unit, making a secondary measurement to make sure you are >6" away from the enemy or something.
Can you measure terrain distances, like measure how big the table is, or how far from one building to the next?

One thing I have been doing is even if the weapon is definitely in range, measuring the full range anyway just to keep tabs on my weapons threat area and who might be in it.

Any thoughts would be helpful.

Per the movement rules, you can presmeasure movement, too. Clearly states you can measure their movement, and then decide to move somewhere else or not at all.

eman1_2 wrote:Per the movement rules, you can presmeasure movement, too. Clearly states you can measure their movement, and then decide to move somewhere else or not at all.

I don't think that's true. You can measure movement for a unit, and decide to move them anywhere from 0" to their maximum move. But you cannot measure until you declare that they're moving, so even if you don't physically move the models, they count as moving (and thus can't fire Heavy weapons, etc.). A similar situation is if you declare you're moving from Building A to Building B, which are 4" apart. You flub your Difficult Terrain and score a three, which is not enough range to get into Building B, but it will move your unit completely out of Building A and leave them in the open. So you can decide to just stay in Building A, but you still count as moving.

As far as other measurements, in the current 40k rules, you can only measure when you're moving, shooting or determining a rule's effect. So you can't measure the distance from one unit to another, or from one point on the table to another point. You can measure a unit's maximum movement, but only after declaring they are moving. You can measure a weapon's range, but only after declaring that they are shooting. You can measure the range for abilities and powers like Shadow in the Warp or Shield of Sanguinius, but only when they come into play.

In that final example, you measure for Shadow in the Warp (enemy models within 6" roll 3d6 for psychic tests) when a model that looks like it might be within 6" uses a psychic power. This is a tough call where you have to estimate, but you can't attempt to measure when a model is obviously out of range. For Shield of Sanguinius (all friendly units within 6" get a 5+ Cover Save), you would measure when a unit that might be within 6" suffers wounds from shooting, and even then you can only measure to that unit.

However, measuring maximum range even when it is beyond the target unit is fine, as long as you only measure toward that unit. For example, your devastator squad is in a building at the center of the table, and fires a lascannon at a unit on your right that's about 18" away. You can measure the full 48", by the rules, at the enemy unit. You could not, however, measure 48" in any other direction. This is legal, but in such an extreme case might cost you a sportsmanship point in a tournament.

An interesting side note -- when you declare that a unit is firing, if you wish to hold fire with any models in the unit (a plasma gun, perchance), you must declare so before you measure range. Weapons with Gets Hot! and one use weapons are really the only two cases where this is important, and in most cases common sense prevails. But if you're firing a Tac Squad with a Plasma Gun at a unit that appears to be within range, and ends up being 25" away, you still have to roll for Gets Hot! on the plasma gun unless you declared that it was holding fire before you measured.

Start this post by presuming I've already said everything reeg did. LOL
He beat me to it.

I'd also like to add that there are a few other times when it's okay to measure.

You can measure to be sure your IC is not within 2". AFTER you move him his full 6" if, for some reason, you do NOT want him to have joined that squad he's awful close to, it's okay to measure to be certain.

Want to be sure one unit is close enough to another unit to benefit from a special rule (Pedro Cantor's +1 attack rule or something)? Fine.

Making sure you're 1" away from the enemy AFTER you've moved your full 6" towards him? Okay.

Checking coherency on a unit (Heavy Weapons, for example) to be sure they're all close enough that you don't HAVE to move them (like, if you took casualties)? Cool.

Deep Striking in and trying to be sure you're within 6" of a Teleport Homer, etc? Okay.

Keep in mind that not all of the above are specifically addressed in the BGB. These are my personal feelings.

Eric

Personally, I would argue that you can't pre-measure things like Pedro Kantor's rule, or similar things like the range on Sanguinary Priests. I think that the range on the priests specifically says in the FAQ that you measure when the rule takes affect, which would be in the Assault Phase, after you've moved and when you're ready to make your attacks. But something like a teleport homer would make sense, because they're actually using the signal to pop in.

reegsk wrote: so even if you don't physically move the models, they count as moving (and thus can't fire Heavy weapons, etc.).

I disagree.

Rule for moving states: ..... Or decide not to move at all. Does not say anything anywhere about declaring a move counting as moving, or even that you have to declare a move. Just that you need to do it 1 unit at a time, and cannot go back. Only actual movement of a model in the unit counts as movement.

Rule for shooting heavy weapons / rapid fire: If the unit moves, it cannot fire...... Does NOT say that unti declared a move, only that it moved.

eman1_2 wrote:

reegsk wrote: so even if you don't physically move the models, they count as moving (and thus can't fire Heavy weapons, etc.).

I disagree.

Rule for moving states: ..... Or decide not to move at all. Does not say anything anywhere about declaring a move counting as moving, or even that you have to declare a move. Just that you need to do it 1 unit at a time, and cannot go back. Only actual movement of a model in the unit counts as movement.

Rule for shooting heavy weapons / rapid fire: If the unit moves, it cannot fire...... Does NOT say that unti declared a move, only that it moved.

Unless you are making a difficult terrain test. Then the rule says if you roll the dice and choose not to move you still count as moving.

reegsk wrote: As far as other measurements, in the current 40k rules, you can only measure when you're moving, shooting or determining a rule's effect. So you can't measure the distance from one unit to another, or from one point on the table to another point. You can measure a unit's maximum movement, but only after declaring they are moving. You can measure a weapon's range, but only after declaring that they are shooting. You can measure the range for abilities and powers like Shadow in the Warp or Shield of Sanguinius, but only when they come into play.

If that is the rules, then that pretty much sums it up.

As a side note, in the movement section of the rules, it says that you can measure a movement distance and change your mind and move elsewhere or not at all.

Re: Pedro
Do the rules say that you can only measure the exact movement distance of your models? I don't have the book, so I cannot specify. If it does not speak against it, then I see no "rule breaking" by measuring -for example- Pedro's "Attack bump" range.

Re: Heavy units moving
Don't the rules also say that you have to declare a unit is going to move before moving it?
If you declare that they're moving, then choose not to move anywhere, they still count as moving, since you said they were.
Tactically, this can be fluffed out by calling it a failed charge or trooper tim tripping over a blade of grass. LOL

In every group I've played in and every tourney I've entered, if you declare a unit will be moving, they count as having moved - even if you later decided not to move them.

Eric

I would say if you tried to measure the full range for a 48 inch gun to a unit that is 12 inches away I would call shenanigans. You are measuring the distance between the units. If they are within the range of the weapon than you get to shoot, it is not you fire 48 inchs and their bodies make the bullets stop short

leth wrote:I would say if you tried to measure the full range for a 48 inch gun to a unit that is 12 inches away I would call shenanigans. You are measuring the distance between the units. If they are within the range of the weapon than you get to shoot, it is not you fire 48 inchs and their bodies make the bullets stop short

Page 17, column 1, paragraph 2 is in complete agreement with you.
Measure to the target.


Eric

If you flip to the earliest pages in the rulebook, under Measuring, it states that you only measure "when the rules call for it." So you can't just pre-measure your movement, because the rules do not require you to measure until you actually declare that you're moving. While the movement rules do say that you can move "not at all", they don't clearly state whether you count as moving or not. It's kind of ambiguous, but if you have to declare that a unit is going to move before you measure, that should make them count as moving, regardless of whether they actually move or not, because you've declared your intent to move. It's very similar to the difficult terrain issue. If you declare you're moving into/out of/through difficult terrain, you only make the roll when the rules call for it. Once you've made the roll and measured, you've committed to the action, but don't have to move your models if you don't want to. Once you've declared you're moving in open terrain and lay down the tape measure, you've committed to the action, but if you can't reach the point you want to, you can decide to stay where you are. The only difference is that it clearly states you count as moving at one point, but doesn't at the other. You're still doing the same thing.

On pg 11 it says
"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely) or decide not to move at all."
It sound like
a) you can measure and then measure somewhere else
b) you don't count as moving if you decide not to move (unless it was a difficult terrain test)

I think it's the failing that GW constantly suffers from -- ambiguous wording. Why would they allow you to pre-measure and then decide you don't want to move, but require you to declare your intent before measuring in the shooting and assault phases, and be stuck with it? Furthermore, you can declare you want to move, measure, and decide you don't want to move, but if you declare you want to move and roll for difficult terrain, you're stuck with it?

You cannot measure distances except when the rules call for it. On your turn in the movement phase, the rules state that in the movement phase you must measure to see where your unit can move. Movement does not have to be declared except in the case of whether or not you are entering difficult terrain, and then it's states "If you have rolled the dice, the unit is still considered to have moved for the purposes of firing." Declaration does not make movement happen, rolling of the dice does.

Taking that into consideration with the normal rules for moving.
You may measure the total distance your unit may move and either move or not. If you move, you are considered moving. If you do not move, you are considered to have not moved.

If, when you are measuring your movement, there is difficult terrain in range of your normal move, you must declare if you are going to enter or not as part of your movement. If you declare that you are going to enter the difficult terrain, you have up until you roll the dice to change your mind and decide to stay put and be considered stationary for firing purposes.

If you begin your turn in difficult terrain. You must declare whether or not you are going to move. If you declare that you are going to move, you have up until you roll the dice to change your mind and decide to stay put and be considered stationary for firing purposes.

For shooting you must check line of sight and pick a target. Then you check range.
In my mind you have up until you put the tape down to change your mind and run the unit instead. Once you check range you are committed, but not before.

I can declare that I am going to call in sick to work, but until I pick up the phone and call I still have an option.

reegsk wrote:I think it's the failing that GW constantly suffers from -- ambiguous wording. Why would they allow you to pre-measure and then decide you don't want to move, but require you to declare your intent before measuring in the shooting and assault phases, and be stuck with it? Furthermore, you can declare you want to move, measure, and decide you don't want to move, but if you declare you want to move and roll for difficult terrain, you're stuck with it?

Look at it this way.
If you are in open terrain you can quick scan with your eyes and pick your path or choose to stay put.

In the case of difficult terrain, your feet begin on some solid footing. If you stay put fine, if you decided to move, you have to carefully test where place your feet so that the debris/mud/whatever doesn't give way so you do not stumble. At that point you have abandoned your solid footing that you began with and are no longer in a stable firing position.

When firing, you pick a target and sight down the barrel of your weapon. Until you pull the trigger, you don't know if your weapon has enough umph to reach that particular unit. At that point you have commited to much time to sighting it up and can't choose to run or find another target.

tarthrin wrote:On pg 11 it says
"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely) or decide not to move at all."
It sound like
a) you can measure and then measure somewhere else
b) you don't count as moving if you decide not to move (unless it was a difficult terrain test)

This is a clear reading of what was written on that page.
This is your interpretation of what the writer "must have" meant and is not supported by the text.

Eric