Bartertown.com

So I hope this is where we can post rules questions, or is this a more esoteric discussion of things not so in depth?

Anyway, so here goes... I started this thread on librariumonline... http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/ ... range.html

So what do my fellow BTowners think?

I am suggesting that bikes have 12" assault range, it seems pretty clear to me.

This is the basis for my claim:

1.) Bikes move 12" in the movement phase,
2.) assault moves are made using the same rules used during the movement phase, this includes distance of course?
2a.)therefore, I hypothesise that bikes can assault 12"

Thoughts, counter points? I know it has been played 6" forever, but I think it has been played wrong this whole time and has been misinterpretted...

GO!

This kind of thread (rules) is fine here.

You're going to have two different "camps."

Camp 1 will point out that they assault as they move (or whatever the exact verbiage is) and camp 2 will point out that you get a 6" assault unless specifically told otherwise (and will insist that what they call "creative" reading of the rulebook does not equal *specific* permission).

Furthermore, GW's silence on the matter seems to indicate to Camp 2 that the fact that it's been played as 6" "all along" indicates that GW doesn't see a problem worth addressing.

In the end, nobody's minds will be changed, but there will have been plenty of snarky comments. Sadly, the topic's been done to death and is never resolved.

/discussion?
LOL


Eric

I see that, and with such hostility too (Not here...)

I see the two camps and I just don't get camp 2 at all, makes no sense to me.

So I called GW today and the guy on the phone says no one ever called on this before, he also said what I was saying makes sense based on p.53, and p. 34. He said "Hmmm?" a lot like he realized I pointed out a hole in the rules. But he said, and I think this is the coolest part... "We play around the office, bikes assault as 6", so it is just 6" and has been that way for a long time...

EVEN GW couldn't point to A RULE, they just say it is like that so that's how it is!!

Thanks,
Todd

Page 33, first sentence under "Declaring Assaults":

The maximum distance most units can move during an assault is 6".

Page 53, under "Bikes", "Assault", paragraph quoted in its entirety:

Bike assault moves are not slowed down by difficult terrain. However, each model entering or moving through difficult terrain, or assaulting an enemy who is standing on difficult terrain or behind an obstacle, must take a dangerous terrain test.

Page 54, under "Beasts & Cavalry", "Assault", second paragraph:

Beasts and cavalry are capable of making an especially fast assault to charge their enemies. When assaulting they move up to 12".

Nowhere in the bike rules does it state it "follows normal rules for movement" for assaults, nor does it override the rule clearly stated in the first sentence of the assault rules on page 33. The only quotes under unit types that cover movement values in an assault are under Jump Infantry and Beasts & Cavalry. I really don't see where there is any argument for bikes assaulting 12", when you consider all of the assault rules.

I've done this many times myself, where I happen upon a gap in the rules or a phrasing that opens up a possibility like this. But the important thing is to double-check all of the rules pertaining to it in their entirety, or you might miss something. Like the first sentence. Lawyered.

So... This conversation's going to happen anyway. Huh?

Okay.

Keep it civil or I hand out suspensions.
You have been warned.


Eric

Nah, I think I have the general concensus, nothing to see here from me, no worries, no suspensions,

Woot woot!!
Todd

I do not think that I would ever play another game with someone that actually tried to say bikes can assault 12"

Even though it is not spelled out exactly that they CAN NOT. Every unit that CAN assault more than 6" it is spelled out exactly. With that logic you can figure it out pretty easily.

You shouldn't have to though. It should be spelled out for each class of model.

I agree with Norse, that I wouldn't play in that game (unless he let me retool my list to my all-bike SM army LOL).
I also agree with YW (sorta) that it should be more specifically defined. While I don't see a need to go unit by unit and give their charge range, a simple definitive statement that *only the listed unit types charge 12* would be far better.


Eric

The rules clearly state that most units assault a specific distance. There is only one unit type that says otherwise. How is this up for discussion? If we're working out a trade, and you say "Most of the models are unpainted," and then when you list the models, only two of them mention "has some paint," as a rational person I am going to assume that only those two models have paint on them.

The logic path of "well, it doesn't expressly state. . ." is extremely dangerous and flimsy at best. Here's an example from the fourth edition Space Marine codex, in the Wargear section under "Combi-Weapons":

The bolter may be fired any number of times, but the other weapon may only be fired once per battle.

Emphasis mine. Using this train of logic, "any number of times" means I can fire it as many times as I want. . .in the same Shooting Phase. The rulebook only limited you to firing one weapon per turn, and this weapon clearly states it can be fired "any number of times." There was nothing specific in the rules that clarified this meant once per shooting phase, and the general rule of thumb was that the codex overrides the base rulebook. So I take six Tactical Squads, give each a Sergeant a Combi-flamer, and once you get inside of 24", I pick one non-vehicle unit and declare, "My sergeant fires his bolter 1,000 times. That unit is dead."

And YM, to your point, it does. Under "Monstrous Creatures" it mentions that they follow the rules for Infantry with the exceptions noted below. Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry are both specifically limited to 6" assaults. Beasts & Cavalry mention their Fleet of Hoof/Claw and their 12" assault. Under Walkers, it specifically states they move 6" in the Assault Phase. True, it doesn't mention that bikes are limited to a 6" assault, but if all of the other unit types have it mentioned, and only one of them notes an exception, shouldn't bikes automatically fall under that clause of "most units"? And I think the fact that the GW Direct guy had never been posed this question before is a pretty good indicator that most people limit their bikes' assaults to 6".

As I mentioned in my first post, I do see this happen all of the time, and I've done it myself from time to time. Heck, we had a regular gamer in my area that, thanks to him, everyone had to memorize the rulebook and his codex, because he was always looking for loopholes and trying to bend the rules. I don't put too much faith in the GW Direct system any more, though. When it was the Roolz Boyz, and you would e-mail them, they would take a little bit of time, research the rule and get back to you. But when you have a guy on the phone, and he has to search through all of the rules related to a specific instance in minutes. . .that's just made of fail. In the past, I've called Direct twice about the same rule and received two different interpretations. But, as I mentioned, the fact that he'd never been asked that before might indicate that this is a bit of a reach.

I do agree with you MM. It would have been a LOT simpler if they switched "most units" to "all units, unless otherwise noted." Just a few simple words. They were so close. . .

"My sergeant fires his bolter 1,000 times. That unit is dead."

I would make you roll it.

After you rolled it and converted to wounds, I would roll my saves.

When that was done, I'd complain that you misread the book and, if I couldn't get you to agree with me on how it was supposed to work, I'd insist that we d6ed for it. ; )
After that, regardless who won, I'd concede the game.

Yes. I'm a smart a$$. : )


Eric

Ok, I just have too join in... "all" units would make this a mute point, true... bikes are just the opposite and not included in "most", cavalry were adjusted upwards and a bike is faster than a horse, yes?

So why are assault marines limited to 6" explicitly? They move 12" like bikes so there is no need to do this explicitly(camp #1 theory, I disagree, but let's assume...), but yet they did limit assault marines explicitly, why? because if they didn't they would assault 12", just like bikes should/do RAW (Rules as written)

Bikes are not limited because the rules for assault move say they use the movement rules, which for bikes is 12".

Now, I know balance and moving essentially Turbo boost distance(although 12+6 is the mimimum TB distance to be considered to get the cover save, what can of worms does that open???), are 2 big reason not to allow 12". BUT, as the RAW there is nothign preventing bikes from assaulting 12" , period.

P.33 does not set forth rules for assault moves, it is used as declaring charge rules, as an example of an average move of 6" and how sometimes you are too far away, it is an example, not a rule...

The assault move rules are explained on p.34 and reference the movement phase for assault moves. Bikes do not need to be given permission to move 12" (like assault marines or cavalry, they already have it...) p.53 Unit types assumes bikes have 12" so does not need to restate what is covered elsewhere in the rules... but it did limit Assault marines, but not bikes explicitly, hmmm?

Now, I will admit the box-out on Eldar jetbikes is peculiar and does muddy the waterds even further... it says they may move 6" if they do not assault, but it does not state how far they move if they DO assault, do not assume in this case...

So I have yet to find anyone who can prove bikes assault 6" other than it is just that way, always has been, will be, tough, ...

It is frustrating to me a little, but I know it will never be played this way so I will just wonder in my own mind what it could have been like everytime I move my new bikes

Also, think about it, bikes are just fast, faster than troops, faster than horses, driven by highly skilled drivers (p.53) able to hit-and-run before they can react, it fits the fluff they assault 12" as well, and it makes real world sense, they are bikes, they go 0-60 in what...4 seconds or less, think about the real world having a bikes and a man charging at you, who gets there faster and lops off your head as it drives by?

Todd

So your argument is that the rulebook doesn't say you can't do it, therefore you can?

So this:

As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target, then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored.

. . .is just an example and can be ignored? So I can pre-measure my assaults? In the rules under "Move Assaulting Units" it doesn't specify I can't, therefore I can.

It's not an example, it's an introduction into the rules.