Shadowspear - Campaign using Historical Forces

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wsott1970 ( 126 )
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Shadowspear - Campaign using Historical Forces

Post by wsott1970 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:55 pm

Anybody else find the marines to be at a huge disadvantage and incapable of winning most of the missions??? Again, historical forces only - as I too can get heavy weapon (non-primarus) marines and leave a smoking hole in that chaos force.

The Marine force comes in at what almost 100pts over the chaos which is mostly your unimpressive reroll characters (well unimpressive due to how they are equiped) and an OK librarian (lacking - a force weapon?!?)... The force (IMHO) is rife with lack of AP to bust Chaos Armor and don't get me started on the venom crawler... What the hell were they thinking?!?

Yeah, go ahead and try to double tap a venom crawler and see how fast you are charged (and take some shots back that will do something to you vs yours)... The chaos marines have plasma + heavy and will actually eat you up slowely (and usually return to play over and over)... and the Obliterators + Greaters when buffed (and you won't be able to stop that most of the time) are killable if you dump almost all of your fire one them.... and then they frequently return.

I have gone through that campaign twice (and all the missions that you would never see because you wouln't be likely to win vs any semi-competent opponent)... and I was so frustrate the second time through (employing much better tactics) that I blew a fuse and insisted that my opponent return next weekend and enjoy the marine side of things.

I rarely play marines anyway and I am a Chaos Guy.... so, I am all for some OP Chaos Marine/Chaos stuff... but that campaign in historical mode makes no sense - unless it is literally to make the marine player get smashed in the face over and over (and if you have played it then you know you are almost always just desperately trying to hang on for time-out game).

I am sure the marines are suited to many different uses (and I actually think some are a good deal for their points).... but I can't think of a much worse use for them than fighting that chaos force. At best it will be old marine on marine for you... and watch it all go away to armor rolls (but chaos won't experience that even if your opponent lets you set up woods everywhere).

Bleh... Try it out before you respond w/ hypotheticals.

Sean

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larks ( 362 )
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Re: Shadowspear - Campaign using Historical Forces

Post by larks » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:00 pm

The box set was to coincide with Vigulus Ablaze where chaos makes its triumphant resurgence on the planet I thought. Hence the reprint of abaddon, codex 2.0 etc. Chaos is supposed to win. Much like The EMpire Strikes Back. Then next year there will be another box much like return of the Jedi where the Imperium wins.

This set is not balanced compared to the 8th ed 2 player starter by any means. Most of their campaign starters for story arch purposes are unbalanced. Look at forge bane... Imperium got 2 armigers ...
sincerely,

Matt

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wsott1970 ( 126 )
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Re: Shadowspear - Campaign using Historical Forces

Post by wsott1970 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:25 pm

Yeah, I totally get that... but damn... We have reversed the campaign and are going back through it one more time... and I think that box set it too unbalanced... My thought is that it could seriously impact new players trying to get in... That space marine side of it is super frustrating, completely outclassed, and in biased scenarios.

With a full playthrough outside campaign (all games in a row) and once through campaign and this second nearly finished run through the campaign (reversed players - same terrain) I have yet to see a single win for the marine player...

If I was a new player and bought that box I am pretty sure I wouldn't be buying another box of anything... and if you tortured another friend with the marine side you might not have a friend at the end (ok that is extreme but it frustrated me enough to have a small fit of anger at how stupid it was [first time through campaign after I had played each one and had formulated my ideas of best strategy to attemp the 2nd time and saw the same patterns - meaning to me that my strategy and plans didn't matter]). My friend has seen me fail with both attempts (using different tactics) and has had the time to prep and it is still going the same way for him (as the marine player).

It has a bad syndrome going on in it as well as out-powered/out-classed... It has a very old marine on marine annoyance (armor bounces anybody)... except the chaos player can break that with a lot more AP/multi-wound... and the marine player just has to rely on massed fire and 6s... and a smart player can make that very hard to pay off.

Remember that the chaos side is almost 100 points cheaper too...

I think that the marine units are not useless they just aren't effective in that specific situation... Maybe if your oppent let you have woods/cover every where you wanted to put them... complete control of the setup of terrain (maybe even down to point cost terrain for at least two scenarios) would help a little and automatic choice on turn and double the command points... but that is really handicapping... and that is the only way in which I see this ever even being mildly interesting vs a slaughter... and I am not 100% sure it would help (try out that single group of poor old marines vs the vehicle and see what you think about that - iffin you don't just get magic dice 6s on your first volley and the subsequent getting charged overwatch - split em up and try that one, we have tested that one many different ways and Venom Crawler will always win vs anything but full squad and magic dice - time is not on your side due to regen - he better be dead in 2 turns).

If anybody knows any links to posted legit (not cut to shreds by video editing w/ magic rolls) historical game wins by a marine player then I would love to see them.

I guess on the flip-side of this if you are an old player and want to introduce another player in a way where they will win and you can just have fun trying to eek out a moral victory then that might work... but otherwise I would never tell new players to use that box to play.

I don't know about Forgebane but I will take your word and avoid it forever as well... When I buy a box it is mostly for the models but I do (generally) play through it... and lots of new players will as well... and they will have to use the historical forces... I think this is a bad product in this use (though I absolutely love the chaos models and I am happy with the purchase - but I am not new).

Just my 99 cents.

Sean

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larks ( 362 )
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Re: Shadowspear - Campaign using Historical Forces

Post by larks » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:24 pm

Well the most balanced boxes they have come out with 2 player wise were actually the 30k boxes funny enough. Of course you can use those models in 40k but they were extremely balanced.

Yeah most of their narrative stuff is one sided for that reason . They'll come out with a novel later too to explain the fighting and all. The only thing the marines have in that box IMO is the eliminators to hide behind los blocking terrain. They should be bale to pop off the sorcerer and oblites if they deploy incorrectly.

But by no means would I recommend this box set as an intro one. The deamon wrath and rapture actually is fairly balanced as well along with the other 2 player starter for the new ED. I cant speak for their other narrative boxes though by looking at them they dont seem balanced so that follows the pattern of balanced starter ed box and then unbalanced story boxes.

Even on the website and FB page they don't recommend it as a "start here" option and instead direct to the starter 2 player box.

This also kind of makes sense if you play the narrative missions in 8th. Some are literally , "your going to loose see how long you can last " style missions.
sincerely,

Matt

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