Bartertown.com

Purchased 17 SM Bikes and 6 SM Attack Bikes from magnuslion. Initial post: viewtopic.php?p=275771. Paid PayPal, he shipped, I received it. I expressed that my interest was in metal bikes, but upon inspecting the bikes, it turns out none of the bikes were metal and only the sidecars on the Attack Bikes were metal (can even see sprue scars on some of the wheels). Sent him a PM on here and a couple hours later opened a dispute on Paypal noting that I was attempting to communicate here. No response (assumed cause of holiday) but went ahead today to update dispute with information from here. He still hasn't even read my message here but he escalated at PayPal promptly after I updated it. Communication follows:

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Fri May 20, 2011 2:07 pm
by skarsol
Can you give me an idea of the total numbers of plastic and metal bikes?

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Fri May 20, 2011 9:45 pm
by magnuslion
All of the attack bikes are metal. I think there are two squads of regular bikes that are metal. the problem being that they are boxed up currently for shipping, because I really want to get rid of them. I believe that one of the unique figures, the guy in the center squad with the beard, is also metal.

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Fri May 20, 2011 11:30 pm
by skarsol
So you're thinking 6 of the regular bikes are metal? I'm really mainly interested in the older metal bikes to go with the ones I have. I can do $180 Paypal shipped to Texas for the lot based on that if you like.

I'm coming up with a retail of $435 btw.
6 Attack x 25=150
15 bikes * 15=225
2 HQ* 30=60

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Fri May 20, 2011 11:35 pm
by magnuslion
sounds good to me. apollyon13x@hotmail.com. when i recieve payment, I will ship it to you.

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Fri May 20, 2011 11:46 pm
by skarsol
Great! Send me the tracking number once you have it please.

Payment Sent (Unique Transaction ID # XXXXX)

[Address Removed]

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Mon May 23, 2011 3:37 pm
by skarsol
Did you get the payment notification from Paypal?

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Mon May 23, 2011 3:48 pm
by magnuslion
Yes indeed sir I am shipping it today, I will send you tracking info tonight and I will get the insurance for it

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Mon May 23, 2011 3:55 pm
by skarsol
Okay, great, thanks. Just wanted to make sure.

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Tue May 24, 2011 11:32 am
by magnuslion
Ok sir, I sent out your order yesterday, Monday the 23rd via a flat rate priority express medium sized box. all the figures are wrapped in soft cloth scraps to avoid breakage or scratching. the tracking number is:

03102640000053576071

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Tue May 24, 2011 11:33 am
by skarsol
Okay, will let you know once I've got it.

Re: 40k Lot of Bikes

Sent: Fri May 27, 2011 10:58 pm
by skarsol
Okay, so I've unpacked and examined this, none of the regular bikes are metal. A couple of the riders have metal bits, but that's about it. To make it worse, none of the attack bikes are the old metal style as you said. They're all plastic bikes with metal sidecars. I can't use any of the models to finish my army because they don't match my metal bikes.

Thus ends the thread on here (with my most recent message unread). I copied the thread to Paypal and he escalated with:

5/30/2011 18:55 PDT - PayPal: Seller escalated this dispute to a Claim.
5/30/2011 18:55 PDT - Seller: The item was exactly as described, also I specifically said in the ad for it that the item was "as is" and that I would not be offering a refund. I had four other offers for this army after shipping it to mr.ellis, all above what he was willing to pay. ALL of the attack bikes listed were metal in the old Warhammer 40k style. I will not be offering a refund in this instance. I believe mr. XXXXX is attempting a scam, as I have been given to understand that Bartertown.com is notorious for scammers. I will never be doing business there again and I am disgusted by this whole affair. I was not in town which is why I did not respond to the initial messages regarding this incident.

So looks like he'll never be back, so that makes this whole thing sorta pointless, but there it is. If he truly did have four offers for this army, you're welcome to contact me and I'll send it to you for my cost (180) + shipping if Paypal rules in his favor. I would have been happy to pay shipping to send it back to him for a refund but he won't talk to me directly (and apparently it was "as is" with "no refund" despite me seeing that nowhere ).

Dude--did you even look at his pics?

'Cause if you did--I think this is pretty much all your fault.

The bikes in the photos are very clearly the plastic marine bikes (some with metal riders) and the plastic/metal hybrid atack bikes.

If you wanted all-metal, Rogue Trader bikes, I really think you should have been a little more specific--and you should have looked at his pics.

I don't wonder that he thinks you're trying to take advantage of him since you opened a PayPal dispute pretty quickly.

I did look at the blurry pics, and I'll admit to not paying as much attention to them as I should have. Really I didnt much care what they looked like, I just hate used/painted plastic. Regardless, I think I was clear I wanted metal bikes and he was clear the attack bikes were metal. I took a risk on him "thinking" 6 of the other bikes were metal, and had they not been I would have eaten it. As for opening the dispute, pay pal says to open it as soon as you think there is something wrong as a communication tool. I'm not sure why you think I should have held off? It doesn't give some sort of negative rating or anything.

As for trying to take advantage of him, how? I'm perfectly willing to ship them back untouched for a refund and he apparently has plenty of buyers for them. I guess I could be accused of maliciously wasting his time?

Quote Seller " ALL of the attack bikes listed were metal in the old Warhammer 40k style. I will not be offering a refund in this instance."

But they are not exactly the "old" style attack bikes. If he did have other buyers and to me you both are at fault (small pics do show the rare they more modern bikes/attack bike style), but the seller did not offer the correct info when asked point blank if they were metal or not. Buyer paying to ship them back and get refunded what he payed without the sellers shipping cost seems like a fair solution.

The pictures aren't great for up close detail--you should have asked for better ones for that--but as for telling the difference between this:

Rogue Trader Bikes and these:

2nd Edition+ Bikes the pics are MORE than sufficient.

Should the seller have clarified what, exactly, you meant by "metal bikes"? Sure. But since the 2nd ed bikes were NEVER available as all-metal models, he can be forgiven, I think, for believing that you were referring to the bikes with metal riders and side cars.

This should be resolved by him refunding and you returning at your cost (which you have proposed). If you have the seller's email address, PM it to me and I'll see if I can raise him.

I haven't looked over the BTR yet but, because the initial ad was linked but not quoted, here's the text from the original ad:

magnuslion wrote:I no longer play warhammer, and so i am selling of my figures. cheap. I am hoping to sell all of them at once, but if you really want something I have separate then send me a message and we will work something out.
What I have to offer is several squads of Marin Bikes, Marine Attack Bikes, and a White Scars Commander and Chaplain. I played these as an Irregular White Scars chapter. Some of the figures need minor repair, such as arms re-attached, but all relevant pieces are there. I just cannot be asked to mess with them. All of the attack bikes are the old metal style, and so are a few of the other figures.
Pics here:
http://s1002.photobucket.com/albums/af1 ... ure002.jpg
http://s1002.photobucket.com/albums/af1 ... e003-1.jpg


I am asking 200.000 OBO for the whole lot, plus 14.00 for shipping. They are valued at over 500.00 retail. Payments through paypal only, please. If you have any questions, message me.

Having looked things over, I don't necessarily agree with sorrow.

To qualify everything I say after this, I have NOT seen the pictures. For some reason, I cannot get to them (PBucket was allowed at work for a while -the only image hosting service allowed, in fact- but is now, apparently, blocked again)..
So, everything I say below is qualified on the fact that I have not seen the EXACT images that were sent.

Here's what I do see, though...

From the ad:

All of the attack bikes are the old metal style, and so are a few of the other figures.

Apparently, NOTHING is in the old, metal style. Just having a metal side car does not qualify it as being "old metal style." That makes is plastic with a metal side car.
Also, NONE of the other figures was the "old metal style." Apparently, it was all plastic with metal bits. VERY different.

From their communication:
Buyer:

Can you give me an idea of the total numbers of plastic and metal bikes?

He did not ask about metal bits, bobs, weapons, riders, doo-dads or sidecars. He specified *bikes.*

Seller:

All of the attack bikes are metal.

That's a pretty specific statement.

I think there are two squads of regular bikes that are metal. the problem being that they are boxed up currently for shipping, because I really want to get rid of them. I believe that one of the unique figures, the guy in the center squad with the beard, is also metal.

He's leaving himself a lot of wiggle room here with the "I think" crap. The only piece I'd specifically give him a "free pass" on is where he refers to one of the "unique figures... with the beard" being metal. In that case -even if unintended- he refers to the rider and not the bike. If that rider's not metal, then it's just more crap from him.

Buyer:

So you're thinking 6 of the regular bikes are metal? I'm really mainly interested in the older metal bikes to go with the ones I have.

He tries to clarify the number of metal bikes and even TELLS the seller why he only wants metal BIKES.

Seller:

sounds good to me

While he does not confirm the presence of metal bikes here, he also does not attempt to qualify the fact that they might not be metal. He just happily takes the money and, apparently, runs.

I'm a strong proponent that providing images is a perfect way to adhere to our policy that the seller has to clearly describe what they have. Those images, however, need to CLEARLY show it. The buyer in this case has already referred to them as blurry. I can't check the images, but I will do so later on tonight and follow up.

I do not think the buyer was hasty in filing the PayPal claim. He's protecting himself, which is important. *IF* the buyer is in the right, then he needs to act fast to protect his money. Giving the seller as little time to transfer it out of PayPal is an important step.

I have been given to understand that Bartertown.com is notorious for scammers. I will never be doing business there again and I am disgusted by this whole affair.

Notorious for scammers?
Please!
I take offense to that. We're "notorious" for many things... but scammers isn't one of them. We go out of our way to keep things as safe as possible while still giving total trade freedom like NOBODY else does.
As he has no intention of trading here again, I'll be happy to help him out with this by providing a little "Ragequit assistance" when this is resolved.

@OP
Since he's refusing to answer your PM's, you should try email. Note that the email he joined with here is the same one that he gave you for PayPal.
Also, please update the BTR with his name, as given in your PayPal receipt.


Eric

It doesn't appear I can edit my post. Magnuslion is Geoffrey Mccafferty. Knowing what I know now, looking at the pictures, I can tell that the gun mounts on the front of the bike are different from the front of the bikes on my models which have the guns under the front wheel well. I'm willing to admit to error in not paying enough attention to it. I gave sorrow the email as requested, I don't want to harass him with emails, so I'll wait to send anything till I hear from sorrow. The paypal dispute (now claim) is in "waiting for comment from seller" till the 9th, so I suspect I wont hear anything till then.

Here are the seller's pics:
I agree that the seller's language is not as specific as it could be, and I agree that the attack bikes aren't, in even a loose sense, "metal".

However, if the seller is ignorant of the Rogue Trader bikes, the metal riders and the metal side cars are the closest he can get to "metal" bikes.

Further, there are only two types of the attack bikes pictured--one that is all plastic, and one with a metal side car, and the older type is the one with the metal side car. Consequently, the are viable "older metal bikes".

I don't think there's any way to get around the pics. If the seller wanted only plastic bikes and got the hybrids, or vice versa, that would be one thing, but the bikes pictured only come in those two types.

I will contact the seller this aft.

Thanks for posting the pics, S_.

I'm going to slightly edit but not CHANGE my opinion.

In the center rom of models, there are 9 bikes. If someone told me the 3 on the left & the 3 on the right were older metal, and I was willing to take them at their word, I would believe it. Between the far away camera angle, slightly less than crisp image, white tableclotk/doily-thing & the cow(?) inspired pain jobs, the lines on those models are blurred enough that I would believe them.

As for the other bikes, I could also be convinced -lacking better images- that the 4 bikes on the right bottom right were old metal bikes with metal sidecars.

Now, granted, my experience goes as far back at the end of 3e, and I don't have a lot of experience with the old metals, but I DO know what they look like.

Eric

Okay looking at the photos from his photobucket site to me they're clear enough that they are no where near the RT bikes.
If the buyer looked at the pictures I'm hard pressed to see how he didn't notice the difference. If he was unsure and the seller wasn't sure the catalog page from stuff of legends would have helped sort it out i would think. Since the seller rage quit it's hard to get a sense of if he knew what the difference is.

So, let me change things up a little bit.
We've established in the past that images DO qualify as providing accurate descriptions of your items, per Bartertown rules.

What happens when your picture is not quality and the WRITTEN description does not coincide with the images?

In this case, the OP obviously thought they were metals, at least in part. He even stated BEFORE buying them that it was the only reason he wanted them. Others besides the buyer can see how there might be confusion. Seems like it's definitely not a case of buyer's remorse.

The seller refuses to communicate with the buyer. He claims to have had better offers and the buyer is willing to pay return shipping. The buyer would not be OUT any money and, in fact, could come out better for it. Where's the logic in refusing?


Eric

In my opinion, your pictures should match your written description. When he was negotiating he should have used the pictures as references. While there were metal bikers (the riders were metal), the only metal bikes have always been RT/ 2nd Edition. If the seller was referring to the metal bikers, then he should have specified that the riders were metal, not the bikes themselves.

I have contacted the seller and am awaiting a response.

In an effort to keep this BTR from becoming further cluttered, let's not discuss the validity of the BTR in this thread any longer, please.
I've opened a discussion thread for that specific purpose. Please, discuss validity there:
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=139483

Thanks.

Eric