Bartertown.com

Hey guys. I had arranged a trade for my full Tyranid army for his PSP + some games. I had sent my part four months ago (as I was to ship first) and then recieved my own part in the mail. The silly mail service thought the 'return adress' was the destination. So I sent it back out. Nine weeks (about) ago I got confirmation that he had recieved the parts:

Re: Check up
Sent at: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:48 pm
From: oyowzas
To: sarnas

Okay it arrived i just got the package. It seems like everythings kinda roughed up but here. I'll try to get the psp and stuff out this week. =]

Notice the 'roughed up.' I never got an answer to my question on how my models were in bad condition, and I am sorry for that.
So that message was more than two months ago. Here is my reply to it:

Re: Check up
Sent at: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:19 pm
From: sarnas
To: oyowzas

Roughed up? I hope nothing is broken!

There was one warriors who's scything talon was lose, and the Carnifex was lose on his base, but that was it, I sure hope everything is fixable!

But glad to hear you got it, finally!

I sent a "check up" message later on, just asking if he had shipped it and if he hadn't if he could do so. Here is my message:

Re: Check up
Sent at: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:16 pm
From: sarnas
To: oyowzas

has their been any progress with the PSP?

Re: Check up
Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:43 pm
From: oyowzas
To: sarnas

i sent it about a month and a half ago. i assumed it had arrived. I guess if it hasnt its mixed up somewhere. Hopefully sometime soon it'll either arrive there or be returned here. Let me know.

I honestly do not believe he is frauding me, and I know I am not frauding him, but there is no way of knowing for sure as we live very far from eachother. I waited a week (Now being around 9 weeks from the proposed sending of the psp) before sending my options message below:

Options
Sent at: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:21 pm
From: sarnas
To: oyowzas

Hello, it's me again.

I think a long enough passage of time has expired to conclude that either the object was lost in the mail, or something else happened.

This is difficult for me to talk about, but I cannot let this slide, as I have an entire army to lose.

Would you rather negotiate a cash replacement, model replacment or something along those lines, or would you rather bring it up with the postal service you shipped with and get me a reimbursal for my loses? I have gone through the U.S and Canadian postal services, and the cheapest option has a max shipping time of about four weeks. It has been about nine.

I know this is difficult, but we can be civil about it, right? What option seems best to you?

And his reply:

Re: Options
Sent at: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:51 pm
From: oyowzas
To: sarnas

We can indeed be civil about this, I will not be sending a cash replacement or model replacement however, as i sent what i said i would. I sent what i said i would even after receiving your horrible package, the models you sent me were easily the worst condition models i've ever received on bartertown, and i've received some bad stuff. Regardless of your models arriving horribly i still sent what i said i would and i don't see how the post office misplacing the shipment, or even worse, you possibly frauding me when you in reality already received the psp could in any way shape or form place me at fault.

However as i am a good trader, if you dont believe me check my feedback, i will check with the post office and see if theres anyway they might have possibly mixed the package up or if they've got some news on it.
Good day sir.

Now, I don't need to deal with this above some things going on in my life that really don't belong on the internet, but it includes Afhanistan, military, and friends...

However, I will not just be told "I'll check with the post office" and either recieve a "Meh, they cant do anything" or just never recieve another message again. I will not let this slide as I have an entire army to lose. I know I had my problems during shipping, since it took a very long time, but that's because they shipped it back to me, and I had to send it out again. I have also asked for proof about the models being in bad condition, with no reply as of yet.

Here is the original package from him:
Re: psp
Sent at: Wed May 21, 2008 8:43 pm
From: oyowzas
To: sarnas

Is it all latest edition stuff?
My psp is in excellent case it has a binder like case to store everything in. A 1gb memory stick
ridge racer
eragon
jeanne de arc
+ south park umd with 5 episodes on it

For my entire tyranid army, which I can dig up the thread of.

Just a warning, I don't think we are scamming each other, but as I am empty handed and he has at least recieved something, even if it is actually in bad condition, which was out of my control, as I do have pictures of the army in good condition before I sent it.

I will be looking into taking further action, but I though I would post this first.

Sincerly,
Sarnas

So are you trying to tell me that an experienced trader sent out a PSP & games WITHOUT delivery confirmation???!! If so, he has NO PROOF he sent anything. So its a bad trade. Put up a negative reference & file fraud.

starslayer wrote:So are you trying to tell me that an experienced trader sent out a PSP & games WITHOUT delivery confirmation???!! If so, he has NO PROOF he sent anything. So its a bad trade. Put up a negative reference & file fraud.

I was suspecting this, but I feared people would take sides, and as I only have two feedback, it could just get worse. I will keep this in mind, thanks.

If you have photos of the army before mailing.. that is a Good Thing. How you send them (packaging) is important. Were they really well packed? You did not use newpaper, or something crushable, did you?

His description of "roughed up" sounds... mild.. and then later claiming they are the "worst condition models" he has seen.. why would he not have been hollering about it from the moment he got the parcel? That is a concern to me.

starslayer, where does it mention either side not using Delivery Confirmation or Insurance?

sarnas, Did you use those yourself when you shipped to oyowzas?

-Porkuslime

porkuslime wrote:If you have photos of the army before mailing.. that is a Good Thing. How you send them (packaging) is important. Were they really well packed? You did not use newpaper, or something crushable, did you?

His description of "roughed up" sounds... mild.. and then later claiming they are the "worst condition models" he has seen.. why would he not have been hollering about it from the moment he got the parcel? That is a concern to me.

starslayer, where does it mention either side not using Delivery Confirmation or Insurance?

sarnas, Did you use those yourself when you shipped to oyowzas?

-Porkuslime

I admit they were fairly tightly packed, to fit in a certain sized box as a slightly larget box is something like $10 more to ship, but they had packaging to help keep them cushy, like bubble wrap.

I did not use tracking, as I was shipping first, and am new to this and I probably should have done that, BUT he never said it was lost, he has recieved it.

He apparently has the tracking number but 'can't find the recipt, I'll keep looking.' Which sounds even worse to me. I think starslayer just ment that an experianced person (one unlike me!) would have knoe better?

But yes, the big thing to me is 'roughed up' (I had told him before hand that a carnifex was loose on the base, and that a few warriors arms were lightly glued on and small things like that) suddenly turned into the worst things he had seen. I just don't know what to do. I'm hesitant to bring in the negative review, but then again, he has been defencive/hostile.

But also, if I have to take this further as in with the law, how is filing for fraud affected between countried? I am in Canada and he is in the States.

Wow, a lot of typos, I'm sorry!

Here is the message I sent last night and forgot to include in this post:

Re: Options
Sent at: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:56 pm
From: sarnas
To: oyowzas

Okay, I'm sorry for the package, but you never informed me they were in bad condition? Could you send me a picture of the models, so that I can see just how bad they were damaged? I'll take that into consideration before taking further action. However, as you yourself said, I sent in, recieved it by accident, and then shipped it again. What happened outside of my control is not my fault, but you did recieve the package.

However, I will not just let this go, for as far as I know (just like for as far as you know I have recieved the PSP, even though I have been sending check up messages very regularly) you have never sent the thing. I honestly believe you have sent it, because as we both know, you have (30?) good reviews, which is why I did the trade in the first place. I know I only have a couple trade reviews, but that's only because I have very little to trade, and most of it has been taken already.

But you could also tell me that the postal office can do nothing, you won't do anything, and then I'm royally fudged.

Are there any other options for use to resolve this?

And really, beside this issure, I would like to see pictures of the models and their condition so that I can bring it up with Canada Post.

With all the wondering where the package was & if it delivered, I thought they didnt use a DC#. If you dont use a DC# you are basically screwed. Showing a pic of your army means nothing. It means you have/had an army, not that you sent it.

Good luck resolving this.

Well I see what you are saying, but then again, the issue isn't that I didn't send the message, because apparently my models arrived in horrible condition, so at least he has them. Him not having tracking is the main problem though.

Well.. the problem with neither of you using DC is that this seems to be a cross border Canada/US trade, and DC will NOT be an option.. I think the only way of ensuring some level of trackability is to use Insurance, which IMHO is REALLY pricey when you talk international postage.

Did you and he fill out customs slips? Is there a CHANCE that his end is stuck in the Postal Customs office up there? How did you and he mark it? Gift? Merchandise?

-Porkuslime

porkuslime wrote:Well.. the problem with neither of you using DC is that this seems to be a cross border Canada/US trade, and DC will NOT be an option.. I think the only way of ensuring some level of trackability is to use Insurance, which IMHO is REALLY pricey when you talk international postage.

Did you and he fill out customs slips? Is there a CHANCE that his end is stuck in the Postal Customs office up there? How did you and he mark it? Gift? Merchandise?

-Porkuslime

We did none of that. I marked mine as "gift" with $40 value so that it would slip through customs quicker. Not sure what he did...

Re: Options
Sent at: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:45 pm
From: sarnas
To: oyowzas

OKay, I have a new solution which, if you shoot it down, I'm going to do myself and with much more force behind it.

What you can/will do, is file for mail fraud against your mail company for lost or damaged parcel. That way I don't get directly involved, and we can see how that plays out.

If that does not work, or you are against it, I will submit for mail fraud myself. I know you read the otehr message but declined to answer.

I will be giving you until monday night to give me proof that you have filed the report, meaning a copy of your message in the mail fraud format, and a copy of any further information you send or recieve. If it is like you have said and how I want to believe that it is just lost in the mail and not your fault, then just file for lost or damaged parcels. I can't see any reason you wouldn't do this, considering it does not cost you anything to do. Please get back to me ASAP.

Sarnas.

Here is my new message to him. I think the rest of today, tommrorow and most of monday is a good enough time span to at least file for mail fraud (it suposedly takes about an hour to fill out the form or whatever). If he won't do this, then we know there's a problem, since you know, it's free.

Just for future reference, Gift does not ensure faster delivery. Accurate paperwork does. It is actually a crime to declare these international trades as gifts.
There is no reliable way to track a package once it has crossed the border. No other mail system shares this sort of information. All a DC would do is tell you when it crossed the border, That is as far as it would go. (Express may be different, not exactly sure)

Since you are on opposite sides of the border there is really nothing that can be done. Mail faud woun't touch this as the package was out of their hands once past the border, anything could have happened between then and delivery.

For international trades you need to keep every bit of paperwork in case something does get lost. Depending on the opposite country there are ways to potentially track things. Customs have number, DC, Express, and other forms also have the ability to be tracked on way or another, even if it is by visual scan. Technically the USPS does not guarentee all of their mail either, there is only one style that they absolutely guarentee, (I think it is certified) as it dose not leave their hands untill someone else qualified to take it from them recieves it.

One other side note. I just recently conducted a trade with someone from Canada, We sent at basically the same time, though I was able to get to the post office a day before he was. I recieved mine almost a full week after he recieved his. even though the date checked out with the day he said he sent. I am in US, he was in Canada

Yeah, I've already begun to hate the Canadian post office. However, nine weeks? THat's pushing it.

Thank you all for your help. So I guess I'm fudged then, eh? Well... doesn't that suck

I will still give him to the monday night, to see if that works out. Because IF it has passed the boarder, then I can file for lost or damaged parcels against the Canadian post, as long as he can actually get me the fricken info for it...

This system of ours for 'ratings' doesn't work for crap. Once you have 30 good ratings you shouldn't be able to be a douche bag and hten just say "I can't possibly be bad! Look at my good ratings!"

Hey
On the second page of the "Have questions need help" forum I started a thread about shipping to Canada and how to get delivery con firm.Some really good info on how to find out if it was shipped.Maybe Kturock will see this post and help you out too,the guy knows his s@$% about shipping.I never send anything to CA without some way to track insurance,registered something it cost more but look at your situation.Dont be too down on the rating system a 30 rating doesnt make you a expert,hell when the refs get backup I ll be more than double that and I still consider myself a novice compared to most of these guys.Hope this helps Pete

Wow.

So much to comment on.

sarnas wrote:

porkuslime wrote:Well.. the problem with neither of you using DC is that this seems to be a cross border Canada/US trade, and DC will NOT be an option.. I think the only way of ensuring some level of trackability is to use Insurance, which IMHO is REALLY pricey when you talk international postage.

Did you and he fill out customs slips? Is there a CHANCE that his end is stuck in the Postal Customs office up there? How did you and he mark it? Gift? Merchandise?

-Porkuslime

We did none of that. I marked mine as "gift" with $40 value so that it would slip through customs quicker. Not sure what he did...

Never do that again.
Two words: Mail Fraud.
If you are getting something in return, it is NOT a gift. A gift, by definition, is something given without the expectation of something in return. You can bet your bippy (YES, I SAID, "BIPPY!") that the USPS will use that definition if they decide to go against you.

sarnas wrote:Re: Options
Sent at: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:45 pm
From: sarnas
To: oyowzas

OKay, I have a new solution which, if you shoot it down, I'm going to do myself and with much more force behind it.

What you can/will do, is file for mail fraud against your mail company for lost or damaged parcel. That way I don't get directly involved, and we can see how that plays out.

How do you expect him to file mail fraud against the POSTAL SERVICE?
Forgive me, if I'm ignorant of something so huge, but where did you get the idea that this was even possible?

mrrshann618 wrote:Just for future reference, Gift does not ensure faster delivery. Accurate paperwork does. It is actually a crime to declare these international trades as gifts.

Bingo!

mrrshann618 wrote:There is no reliable way to track a package once it has crossed the border. No other mail system shares this sort of information.

Bingo.

mrrshann618 wrote:All a DC would do is tell you when it crossed the border, That is as far as it would go. (Express may be different, not exactly sure)

Not quite. You can't even BUY Delivery Confirmation on a package leaving the US. There IS a service you can use that will track it all the way. I don't recall which it is, but it's expensive as HELL.
Canada has their own version, as well, IIRC.

mrrshann618 wrote:For international trades you need to keep every bit of paperwork in case something does get lost. Depending on the opposite country there are ways to potentially track things. Customs have number, DC, Express, and other forms also have the ability to be tracked on way or another, even if it is by visual scan. Technically the USPS does not guarentee all of their mail either, there is only one style that they absolutely guarentee, (I think it is certified) as it dose not leave their hands untill someone else qualified to take it from them recieves it.

You're right about keeping the paperwork, but the customs forms you fill out do NOT act as tracking in any way, shape or form.

mrrshann618 wrote:One other side note. I just recently conducted a trade with someone from Canada, We sent at basically the same time, though I was able to get to the post office a day before he was. I recieved mine almost a full week after he recieved his. even though the date checked out with the day he said he sent. I am in US, he was in Canada

You said a mouthful there.
To be honest, knowing that it's a Canadian trade, a 3 month ship time would, literally, not surprise me. This is why I, typically, do not trade to Canada anymore. It's not about the traders or trust. It's about ship time taking so dang long. Obviously, I don't blame the traders for that, but that doesn't mean I have to volunteer to be subjected to it.

sarnas wrote:This system of ours for 'ratings' doesn't work for crap. Once you have 30 good ratings you shouldn't be able to be a douche bag and hten just say "I can't possibly be bad! Look at my good ratings!"

I take a little exception to that, to be honest.
This system of our works WONDERFULLY (when the ITL is working, that is). Having 300 goood references doesn't give someone the right to say that sh!t. Being a "douche bag" is about the trader and not the ratings. Traders of ALL ratings can be jerks. I know we can all think of some.
Don't blame that on the reference system.
It's about the trader, not the system.

Shoot. You've seen proof of the right here already.
Your ref is 2 and what is his? Whatever it is, whose side has EVERYONE been on? Yours.
Why? Because there's a protocol, and HE is breaking it.
WHEN YOU SHIP A PACKAGE, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT UNTIL IT IS RECEIVED.
(Note; That was capitalized for effect and NOT meant to be "yelling.")


I don't know what to tell you about the whole deal. You very well could be out of luck. That would suck ROYALLY. There isn't a lot you can do about it, except report a "lost package" to the USPS and ask him to do the same up North.
(Be certain to request COPIES OF THE PAPERWORK for your records).

Eric