Possible bad trader: chadbacca

[Soukin]

Hello btown

I contacted chadbacca about some O&G he had for sale on 8/26. Over a day we quickly figured out a price and I sent a payment via paypal on the night of 8/26. The items were supposed to be shipped within 2-3 days while payment transfered to a bank account (not just clear to paypal) and that was fine. After this time the items were still not shipped, the seller was contacted. There was an emergency, which is fine. The seller stated he would ship by a set date. Items were still not shipped by that date. I contacted the seller since I was pretty certain my items were still not shipped and requested a refund. The seller shipped the items anyways (evidence shows he read the request to not ship before shipping). The items finally arrived and parts were missing, but the seller claims the missing parts were considered "extra" so if they are missing it shouldn't matter. We were unable to come to a resolution after a few attempts.

The items in question are the bits to make 30 more orcs. I actually recieved 10 full bodies, 3 chests, 2 legs. There were plenty of weapon bits and optional weapons, but I cannot build 18 more orcs out of weapons only (unless they are some sort of weird D2 iron golem orks).
===============================================
Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:34 am

Hello

If you are willing to split up the o&g lot, I'd be interested in the following:

60orcs + 30 extra orcs you mention you have parts for
6 goblin fanatics
1 rock lobba
1 spear chukka

Let me know how much $$$ you'd be willing to let this go for with shipping to [omitted] ([omitted] somewhat close to ya!)

Subject: h: ig, csm, o&g, misc, codices w:sm, beastmen

okay, i have a lot of stuff here for sale... prefer that if i'm going to break it up that it's in larger lots though. obviously there is a larger discount the more you buy. also, unless noted, the item is assembled and primed/bare. lastly, i have a few things i'm willing to take in trade, but not much. i'm mainly looking to thin down my collection & make some money in the process. thanks for looking!

IG

cadian
cadian command squad
3x mortar teams
3x metal cadian infantry
1x metal cadian w/ plasma gun
1x metal cadian w/ melta gun
1x metal cadian w/ missile launcher
1x metal cadian w/ flamer

$35 shipped. i'll also toss in whatever spare cadian bits & stuff i have (should be enough to make at least half an infantry squad + spare bits)

catachan
col "ironhand" straken (previous edition- painted)
catachan command squad
3x catachan infantry squad (2x guardsmen painted)
3x metal catachan infantry
6x metal catachan's w/ heavy flamers
1x metal catachan demo expert
1x metal catachan w/ missile launcher
1x metal catachan w/ plasma gun

$80 shipped. you will also get about 30-40 more catachan infantry i have that were sitting in simple green and need a good scrubbing, plus all the catachan bits that i have.

tanks & misc
commissar w/plasma pistol & axe (painted) $9
3x steel legionnaires w/ grenade launchers $7
5x ratlings (previous edition) $10
3x leman russ battle tanks (1x painted) $65
basilisk (painted) $25

all of the above prices include shipping.

CSM
abaddon
sorcerer $10
10x terminators $65
5x possessed $15
26x 1k sons (3x aspiring champions) $75 pending
1x obliterator $13
1x brass scorpion (made from both the defiler AND soul grinder kits) $45
csm codex

all the above individual prices include shipping... or you could buy the whole lot for $130 shipped

ORCS & GOBBO'S
60 orcs
-30 w/hand weapons & shields (12 painted)
-30 w/2 hand weapons (12 partially painted)
40 night goblins w/bows (20 bfsp, 20 non-bfsp- 1 painted)
40 night goblins w/spears & shields (bfsp)
20 forest goblin spider riders (10 bfsp, 10 non- 1 spider painted)
6 goblin fanatics (3 new in box)
1 goblin big boss (bfsp- painted)
1 goblin shaman
1 orc warboss on boar
1 orc warboss on foot
1 orc boss w/battle standard on foot
2 snotling pump wagons (bare metal, unassembled- 1 new, 1 previous edition)
1 rock lobba
1 spear chukka (bare metal, unassembled)
1 O&G army book

$200 for the lot. i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs, the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff, all the battalion box bits, POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP, about 3 black orcs, 12 previous edition arrer boys & a metric ton of more bits. i'll throw that all in there too.

MISC
9x bloodletters $10
lord of khorne on daemonic mount $15
2x metal apothecaries $7
3x metal scouts for bikes $7

CODICES & ARMY BOOKS
CSM $15
IG (current & previous) $15 or $20 for both
necrons $12
ogre kingdoms $12

WANTS
i want vanilla marine stuff and new beastmen. if it's metal, any condition is fine. if it's plastic i would like new or off the sprue. obviously if it's new i would trade in your favor as opposed to retail for retail.


terminators
rhino's
5x sternguard veterans
assault marines
land speeders
any crimson fist iconography is welcome too.
any of the new beastmen models & army book

Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:11 am

if i have to break it up, it's not gonna' be nearly as good of a deal unfortunately, $140 shipped.

Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:44 am

ok ok I see....

Alright. Would you do $180 for the whole shebang?

Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:47 am

yeah that's fine. here's my paypal address

[omitted]

if you can send it today i can ship it off as soon as the money transfers from PP into my bank account (usually takes 2-3 days, i would ship asap, but being that school just started and i had to buy a lot of books, i'm more or less counting on the money i'm receiving to ship). i will for sure get you a DC though. also, what is your address?

Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:54 am

I'll send payment over soon. One quick question. Are the boyz current edition boyz or the single pose old ones?

Please ship to:

[omitted]
[omitted]
[omitted]

Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:58 am

i think there's like, 5 single pose models. no more than 5 though. the arrer boys are single pose but... i dunno, if you've got 40 something nightgoblins with bows & arrows you're not going to really use the arrers anyways. i was going to just add little things to them to make 'em look all diff't from each other and use them in mordheim.

Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:59 am

Sounds good. Thanks

Sent: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:44 pm

Hello. Any updates on if this stuff has been shipped yet? Would be awesome to get it before the weekend because I got a bigass multiplayer game to attend. LMK thanks

Sent: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:27 pm

hey dude. i have to apologize, it has not been shipped yet. there's been an unfortunate incident within the family and we ended up going out of town. i'll be back on thursday, but it won't be until later in the evening i'm sure. i'll have your pkg out no later than friday the 3rd of september, with a delivery confirmation number for you. again, i apologize. especially since you won't get to attend to the tourney with said army. i hope you can understand, thanks for your patience

-chad

Sent: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:05 pm

Hi Chad

Did you get a DC number by any chance?

Sent: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:07 am

Hi Chad

I'm going to assume you have not had a chance to ship yet since if the package was out Friday or even Saturday I would have received it yesterday even with the slowest shipping. Please do not send these items anymore, I will be requesting a refund. Thanks.

Sent: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:56 pm

the pkg went out today, i have a DC in my car, i'm at work so i will get it later for you. Things had just gotten busy here, there's a family, school and work outside of the hobby. I tried to be as communicative as possible. Please accept my apology, the items are on their way. I will send you another message tonight with a confirmation number tonight. The items were shipped priority.

Sent: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:36 pm

Dude I said do not send these items anymore. I was pretty clear.

Sent: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:47 pm

Yeah. I didn't get that msg uuntil after I had shipped them. Let me art lleast refund you for the cost of shopping, since it took me so long.

Sent: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:14 pm

DC# 0303 3430 0001 3678 3664

Sent: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:35 pm

I got the package today and have spoken to mods about how to proceed with this. I really wanted to just send the package back, but as they suggested I try to work things out first that is what I'm going to do. I went through the entire package to count everything and to make sure things were there. Almost everything is there and I am not counting the "possibly" stuff since that could mean its included or its not. That is all fine. However, after going through the bits and the orc boys I found there is no where near enough bits to "make about 30 more orcs". I decided to take you up on your offer to refund me shipping costs, but I will also have to request a partial refund for the orc boys that are not there. A box of new orc boys is $35, but obviously 20% off is easy to find. I am proposing a partial refund of $35, this is for the boys and the shipping combined. If you do not agree with this I would not mind shipping your items back to you (I'll pick up the return costs) and requesting a full refund.

Please let me know if we can work something out. Thanks

Sent: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:01 pm

ummm... no. see, when i priced the army, it was over $400. that was NOT including all the stuff in that last paragraph that i was just throwing in because i wouldn't need/want it anymore- it said in the paragraph that those items were all extra. the money that you gave me was for the items that i had created a list for- all of which was there. everything else was free. as i said, i have no problem giving you the $8.90 that i spent on shipping the items to you, considering i blundered on that. what i'm not going to do is give you money because you are not satisfied with items which were given to you as extra's, sorry- you already got more than 50% off the army to begin with, and that's including shipping. as for a refund, it's out of the question. a deal was made. you gave me money and i sent you items. YES, it did take me longer than expected to ship, i believe i apologized enough for that already. life happens to all of us and hopefully it doesn't happen to me again, or you for that matter. but at no time was I ever NOT communicating with you. besides, the items still came in a somewhat reasonable time (13 days). if you don't want to leave me good feedback, that's up to you. at the time we made the deal, i had about 7 other sales going on at the same time. they all had to wait just like you did- and i was communicating with them all, but you seem to be the only one who was truly upset about the situation. I apologized and i am offering to compensate you for the amount of money that i paid for shipping. that's as far as it's going though. sorry that it had to be such a rough trade [omitted].

-chad

Sent: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:58 am

I think you are misunderstanding me. I asked you not to ship these items, you shipped them anyways. All of the evidence shows you shipped after you read my request not to ship the items, USPS does use timestamps afterall. We shouldn't be having this conversation. Moderators ask me to work things out so that's what I'm trying to do man.

As to your comment about "free extra stuff." If this applied to the 30 orcs that could be built, then why would you quote me a price for my first request which was 60 orcs + bits to make 30 more orcs? I guess if I had purchased that I would be getting some different?

Additional supporting materials:
The USPS DC number is 0303 3430 0001 3678 3664
and
Paypal payment made http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/579/paypalss.jpg

Since I need the models (ongoing tourney) or money so I can buy the needed models, I kept the orcs and took the loss since I found that the claims process via paypal takes more than a few weeks.

[MagickalMemories]

Also:

Sent: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:56 pm

chadbacca wrote:
the pkg went out today, i have a DC in my car, i'm at work so i will get it later for you. Things had just gotten busy here, there's a family, school and work outside of the hobby. I tried to be as communicative as possible. Please accept my apology, the items are on their way. I will send you another message tonight with a confirmation number tonight. The items were shipped priority.

Presuming your timestamp info is correct, the items (according to the USPS DC information) were actually shipped AFTER this PM was sent.

Weird that he sent the package and had the DC# in his car before the USPS "accepted" the package.

Eric

[gpfredette]

Good Day,

Actually it isn't that weird Eric.

If he printed the shipping label either through PayPal or USPS.com he would have the D/C before the post office ever saw the package. I've done it a few times and sent D/C's to my trade partners the night before the package went out.

He may also have a bunch of Tracking slips at home, and ex-girlfriend who was big on eBaying used to do that for the times she had to mail out packages and such.

When he said it was shipped he may have meant it was going to be going into the mail on that day - which it did, it may not have been picked up until later in the afternoon if he scheduled a pickup at his mailbox or office.

I am not trying to make any defences just points that I thought of that could explain the discrepencies.

Thank you,

[Soukin]

The postage was not printed via paypal or USPS. It is a standard postage stamp, the type that is printed at the post office and has the postage value on it.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

This BTR has two components, from my reading:

1. Late (possibly slightly shifty) shipping.
2. Missing parts from the deal.

Now, IMO, issue 1 is not complex. There are a handful of tiny issues:

1.a. The buyer stated that he wished to cancel the deal to due shipping delays.
1.b. The shipper sent the package, possibly before, likely after being told not to send it.

Now, if the buyer really no longer desired the items, he could have fairly refused the package, or returned it unopened. This didn't happen. Opening the package is an admission of a desire to continue the deal, probably in part reinforced by the seller's willing acceptance of fault and offer to refund the shipping cost.

Consequently, IMO, any issues arising from the shipping time/etc are irrelevant.

That leaves Issue 2.

Clearly, if the seller did not send all the parts of the deal agreed upon, he should compensate the seller, or agree to a return and refund.

The seller offered this for sale:

ORCS & GOBBO'S
60 orcs
-30 w/hand weapons & shields (12 painted)
-30 w/2 hand weapons (12 partially painted)
40 night goblins w/bows (20 bfsp, 20 non-bfsp- 1 painted)
40 night goblins w/spears & shields (bfsp)
20 forest goblin spider riders (10 bfsp, 10 non- 1 spider painted)
6 goblin fanatics (3 new in box)
1 goblin big boss (bfsp- painted)
1 goblin shaman
1 orc warboss on boar
1 orc warboss on foot
1 orc boss w/battle standard on foot
2 snotling pump wagons (bare metal, unassembled- 1 new, 1 previous edition)
1 rock lobba
1 spear chukka (bare metal, unassembled)
1 O&G army book

$200 for the lot. i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs, the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff, all the battalion box bits, POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP, about 3 black orcs, 12 previous edition arrer boys & a metric ton of more bits. i'll throw that all in there too.

The buyer made this offer:

If you are willing to split up the o&g lot, I'd be interested in the following:

60orcs + 30 extra orcs you mention you have parts for
6 goblin fanatics
1 rock lobba
1 spear chukka

Let me know how much $$$ you'd be willing to let this go for with shipping to [omitted] ([omitted] somewhat close to ya!)

which the seller priced at $140. The buyer did not accept, and instead offered $180 (shipping included by implication), which the seller accepted.

I think the seller clearly stated that the lot that was for sale was itemized and priced at $200--everything else was free/thrown in. The buyer got the itemized list for his $180.

Just to be clear--in all of the bitz you received, including Orcs of any type, how many can you build?

Cause I read this:

i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs, the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff, all the battalion box bits, POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP, about 3 black orcs, 12 previous edition arrer boys & a metric ton of more bits. i'll throw that all in there too.

not to say that there are 30 more plastic orcs in there, but like this:

i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs,
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff,
-all the battalion box bits,
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP,
-about 3 black orcs,
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-& a metric ton of more bits.
i'll throw that all in there too.

If there are 10 spider riders and 12 arrer boys, we're already at 22 of 30 additional models.

[MagickalMemories]

Now, IMO, issue 1 is not complex. There are a handful of tiny issues:

1.a. The buyer stated that he wished to cancel the deal to due shipping delays.
1.b. The shipper sent the package, possibly before, likely after being told not to send it.

Now, if the buyer really no longer desired the items, he could have fairly refused the package, or returned it unopened. This didn't happen. Opening the package is an admission of a desire to continue the deal, probably in part reinforced by the seller's willing acceptance of fault and offer to refund the shipping cost.

Consequently, IMO, any issues arising from the shipping time/etc are irrelevant.

I'm in partial agreement.
I agree, re: opening the package. Of course, if the guy isn't going to return your money, you might as well open the package. You know?
I do think that the issues arising from the shipping time/etc are relevant, though, because he obviously lied about when he shipped it (which shows that he KNEW 1a, but shipped anyway).

Re:

I think the seller clearly stated that the lot that was for sale was itemized and priced at $200--everything else was free/thrown in. The buyer got the itemized list for his $180.

I don't agree with this p.o.v.
While he did say he was "throwing it in," he didn't indicate that it was extras or "freebies." it seems clear to me that the "throw in" was meant to add value to the trade, so that it was worth his requested price to any prospective buyers. The terminology "throw[ing] in" can be used in a few different ways. One of them would be to establish what you're throwing in for $X.
Had he indicated that they were freebies, my opinion would change.

Just to be clear--in all of the bitz you received, including Orcs of any type, how many can you build?

Good question. I'd like to know this, too. I read the 'extras' explanation slightly different than you, and the sqecifics may change my reading.

Thanks.
Eric

[Ironhide]

$200 for the lot. i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs, the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff, all the battalion box bits, POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP, about 3 black orcs, 12 previous edition arrer boys & a metric ton of more bits. i'll throw that all in there too.

From his ad. Underlined for emphasis. It does not say it is extra. It is part of the whole lot. That is my understanding.

EDIT:

i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs,
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff,
-all the battalion box bits,
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP,
-about 3 black orcs,
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-& a metric ton of more bits.
i'll throw that all in there too.

That is not how the sentence is written. If you want to break it into a list of items going by the grammar and punctuation of the sentence, it would be:
-bits to make about 30 more orcs
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP
-about 3 black orcs
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-a metric ton of more bits

After that, he says he will throw all of that in. He doesn't say it is extra. It is part of the lot.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

I'm in partial agreement.
I agree, re: opening the package. Of course, if the guy isn't going to return your money, you might as well open the package. You know?

I don't see anything in the correspondence to indicate that this was a concern at this point. The buyer waited to receive (and open) the package before communicating with the seller.

If it were me, I would for sure have opened it. But I'm a curious bastard.

I do think that the issues arising from the shipping time/etc are relevant, though, because he obviously lied about when he shipped it (which shows that he KNEW 1a, but shipped anyway).

I think it suggests that he shipped it knowingly. I've never shipped anything IN the US. Does the clerk scan everything the second you hand it over? I'd like to see the seller's scanned receipt, if they want to argue that they didn't know.

However, I think that all this discussion is divergent, because had there been the bits for 30 plastic orcs in there, I don't think we'd be looking at a BTR right now.

Re:

I think the seller clearly stated that the lot that was for sale was itemized and priced at $200--everything else was free/thrown in. The buyer got the itemized list for his $180.

I don't agree with this p.o.v.
While he did say he was "throwing it in," he didn't indicate that it was extras or "freebies." it seems clear to me that the "throw in" was meant to add value to the trade, so that it was worth his requested price to any prospective buyers. The terminology "throw[ing] in" can be used in a few different ways. One of them would be to establish what you're throwing in for $X.
Had he indicated that they were freebies, my opinion would change.

The "price" is, I think, very firmly attached to the preceding list. $200 for the lot. Plus, I'll throw in this extra junk.

Now, it does add value, but the specific value would be difficult to determine, since the value of the entire lot was reduced in the first place.

I do think we need to get a clearer list of what was included.

In response to Ironhide:

$200 for the lot. i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs, the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff, all the battalion box bits, POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP, about 3 black orcs, 12 previous edition arrer boys & a metric ton of more bits. i'll throw that all in there too.

I emphasised slightly different text here to suggest that there are two batches here. Batch A costs $200. If you buy Batch A, you also get Batch B. Batch B has no specific cost, but is contingent on Batch A.

i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs,
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff,
-all the battalion box bits,
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP,
-about 3 black orcs,
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-& a metric ton of more bits.
i'll throw that all in there too.

That is not how the sentence is written. If you want to break it into a list of items going by the grammar and punctuation of the sentence, it would be:
-bits to make about 30 more orcs
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP
-about 3 black orcs
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-a metric ton of more bits

I agree that the seller's grammar could use a colon. I would also accept a semicolon there, though I think it would be a very poor usage.

We could also flagellate the seller for not including the require "metric ton" of bits....

[Ironhide]

I would have! I wonder how much it costs to ship a metric ton of bits?

[blackspade]

$200 for the lot. i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs, the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff, all the battalion box bits, POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP, about 3 black orcs, 12 previous edition arrer boys & a metric ton of more bits. i'll throw that all in there too.

From his ad. Underlined for emphasis. It does not say it is extra. It is part of the whole lot. That is my understanding.

EDIT:

i also have enough bits to make about 30 more orcs,
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff,
-all the battalion box bits,
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP,
-about 3 black orcs,
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-& a metric ton of more bits.
i'll throw that all in there too.

That is not how the sentence is written. If you want to break it into a list of items going by the grammar and punctuation of the sentence, it would be:
-bits to make about 30 more orcs
-the rest of the BFSP O&G stuff
-POSSIBLY 10 more spider riders from BFSP
-about 3 black orcs
-12 previous edition arrer boys
-a metric ton of more bits

After that, he says he will throw all of that in. He doesn't say it is extra. It is part of the lot.

That is the way it reads to me as well.
If you put in the description that you have bitz to build 30 more orcs, then there had better be all of the parts to make 30 orcs of some type or another.
But, like Eric said, it would be good to know what the total # of 'extra' stuff was in the deal.

[reegsk]

I think I could contribute two things. One, if the package was paid for at the post office, the delivery confirmation slip would have to be scanned at the time of the sale. I'm sure kturock would be the authority here, but to my understanding, the DC cannot be attached to the package and paid for unless the barcode is scanned at the same time as the package.

And two, as far as the bits are concerned. It would imply to me, as an orc player, that the bits are for thirty orc boys, as well as everything else on that list. On the list that follows, the only things that are actually "orcs" are the black orcs and the arrer boys. Whether he did or did not include the black orcs in the "30 orc" estimate I can't say. The arrer boys, however, are not bits. They are single-piece, single-pose models. Everything else on that list is a goblin. So he either:

a) meant he had the bits for 30 orc boys in addition to everything else (what I would assume from that statement)
b) meant he had parts for 30 orcs including the arrer boys and black orcs (meaning there should be bits to make 15 more orcs)
c) intended that list as a representation of the "30 more orcs", which would be misrepresentation as the majority of that list are actually goblins

Just trying to contribute, as I'm familiar with the greenskin kits.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

The arrer boys, however, are not bits. They are single-piece, single-pose models.

A minor correction. They are two piece models (separate heads). And, if it's in my bitz box, it's a bit.

[Ironhide]

This all contributes to point of being concise in what you list in an ad, and in your trade negotiations. There is a lesson to be learned.

[MagickalMemories]

I'm in partial agreement.
I agree, re: opening the package. Of course, if the guy isn't going to return your money, you might as well open the package. You know?

I don't see anything in the correspondence to indicate that this was a concern at this point. The buyer waited to receive (and open) the package before communicating with the seller.

If it were me, I would for sure have opened it. But I'm a curious bastard.

You & me both, buddy.

I don't understand, though. When you say, "The buyer waited to receive (and open) the package before communicating with the seller."
Communicate about what?
I mean, before the guy sent it, he said "Don't send it. I want my money back." So, he did communicate *that* to him.
What communication/lack of it are you referring to?

I do think that the issues arising from the shipping time/etc are relevant, though, because he obviously lied about when he shipped it (which shows that he KNEW 1a, but shipped anyway).

I think it suggests that he shipped it knowingly. I've never shipped anything IN the US. Does the clerk scan everything the second you hand it over? I'd like to see the seller's scanned receipt, if they want to argue that they didn't know.

However, I think that all this discussion is divergent, because had there been the bits for 30 plastic orcs in there, I don't think we'd be looking at a BTR right now.

I think you're probably right, re: bitz. At worst, he may have just left a neg ref.
He was expecting and planning on (I think) 30 boyz PLUS the other listed items. So, a late shipped, incomplete package... I'm not surprised about the BTR for it.

As for the USPS... Yes.
In the way the seller did it, he does.
Well... not the SECOND you hand it over...

Shipper brings in a package.
At this point, the shipper also needs to hand over the form for International packages.
The clerk weighs it & types in the zip code (country code... whatever) for the destination.
The cost options come up on the screen.
Shipper chooses his shipping option.
The clerk tries to cross sell everything he possibly can.
He gives the shipper his final total.
Shipper pays.
Postage is printed & put on box.

That's a very general description of what happens. I might have a couple insignificant bits switched around or something... but that's the crux of it.

We could also flagellate the seller for not including the require "metric ton" of bits....

Thought about it.
I think I'd probably berate the OP for being overly pedantic, however, if he did. : )

Eric

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

I don't understand, though. When you say, "The buyer waited to receive (and open) the package before communicating with the seller."
Communicate about what?
I mean, before the guy sent it, he said "Don't send it. I want my money back." So, he did communicate *that* to him.
What communication/lack of it are you referring to?

What I'm saying is that between 8 Sept an 10 Sept, the buyer didn't say, "This deal is off. I will send your stuff back. Please refund me." And on the 10th, he didn't say, "Your box arrived. Please refund me my money and send $10 for me to return it."