How is "BUYING" different than trading??

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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Post by MagickalMemories » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:03 am

Some of you might be wondering WHY it took me so long to respond to this thread.
After all, it is a conversation that is near and dear to my heart (and sig line).
I will endeavor to remain neutral in tone. Rest assured, if you THINK I'm being rude or snarky, I am not.
If I am being rude, you will KNOW it.

IMO...
"Lower rating? You ship first."

This is what I LIVE by in trading. I (and only I) choose when I make exceptions to this.
Have I made exceptions? Yes. For people with less than a third of my rating, in fact.

Here's the deal... Call me "old guard." if you want. I take it as a compliment. I've been around a while. I've never been "taken" and have managed to avoid 3 or 4 scammers when things just didn't seem right. I had an experience with an AWFUL trader, but it wasn't exactly a scam... just a bit of misrepresentation.... but not by a SCAMMEr, fortunately.

What have these scammers ALL had in common? Low rating.
Please, understand that the basis of the rating system is NOT to create different classes of people. It is NOT to point out who is better than whom (The fact that I am better than you has nothing to do with my trade rating. <-- See? That was humor. Not conceit. No flames, please).
The reason for it is to establish who has earned a reputation for trust and to what degree. It allows us to show an established trading history.

From here, we branch out...
a) Your history on other sites doesn't matter here "officially" because we cannot police other sites to verify validity in the way we can police BTown. Without The Admins & Mods attentiveness, I could create a dozen trade accounts & establish a huge trading history in the matter of a week. If I did it on a different site, then used that site to show how I should be trusted here, OUR Admins cannot go behind the scenes there to check IP's and such to ensure that everything is legit. Ebay doesn't count (to those who choose not to let it count) because we have NO repurcussions through ebay if you scam us here. Ebay has a certain amount of "claimed" legal contractual backing. Btown does not.

b)Your history here shows us what we can expect from you here. If you have 15 trades and half of them say you shipped a little late but everything else was fine, I'm not going to stress it if your package arrives late. I'll expect it.

c) Part of the reason that a positive is worth 2 is because a neutral is worth 1. Even a Neutral is worth something here, so a positive should be worth more. There has been much dialogue in the past on making the system more complex. I hope it never happens. Simple is easiest here.

In regards to cash vs. trade. To me, on Btown or ANYWHERE a purchase is nothing more than trading cash for a service/item/etc. You are trading them your money for what they are offering. We call it BUYING because actual "goods" are not changing hands in both direction but it is, in essence, the same thing... Money is just more universal than goods. That's all.
When I started, I paid or shipped first, EVERY TIME, until I'd earned the respect of being someone who is trustworthy. I still recall some of my first trades, scrambling to make sure that I got everything right so I could EARN a positive reference.
Let me say it again...
-- So I could EARN a positive reference --

With enough positives comes a certain amount or respect and trust as a trader.

I respect everyone as people until (*ahem* Ticknor) they prove that they do not deserve it. I respect NOBODY as a trader until they prove that they DO. Why? Respect and trust are mutually exclusive of each other.
I can't respect someone I don't trust (personally), but I CAN trust someone I don't respect. Trust earns respect. Respect does not necessarily earn trust.
I respect Pres. Bill Clinton.
I would NOT trust him alone with my 20 year old daughter. KWIM?

People need to lighten up. Exchange your ideas. Stop being High and Mighty, regardless of whether or not you agree with me. I think it is ridiculous for relatively new traders to come on here and get rude with people who disagree with them, regardless of rating.

-Don't get ahead of me here-

I find it equally (if not more) ridiculous for established traders to do it (again, regardless of HOW you feel).

Grow up, people. Be the bigger person and stop hurling the insults. Take it upon yourself to be the first one NOT to.

IN MY OPINION...

Cash and minis are only different in that you cannot deposit minis into your bank account & spend them in other ways.
Period.
That is it.
They have a monetary retail value. All other details being the same, if someone steals $100 from you & someone steals $100 worth of minis from me, they have (in the US legal system) committed equal crimes.

As that is the case, as they are treated the same there, I will choose to treat them similarly.
If this means you won't trade with me... Bummer. I understand. No hard feelings. I hope you feel the same way when I refuse to pay first.

What you need to judge your thoughts on, IMO, is NOT just ratings, not just if you're buying and NOT just if you are trading.
The whole picture needs to be taken into account. You have a low rating and expect someone to send their (insert anything here) first? You are instantly going on my "nevermind" list.
What is that?
I'll look again later when you have, either, changed that policy or earned the right (by demonstration of trustworthiness) to have it.

I cannot give exact numbers and details off hand, but the following situations have happened to me:
I paid CASH first to someone with less than a 30 rating who had been on BTown for less than a year. Why? They'd spent a lot of time on here, exchanging thoughts & ideas & working to help make BTown a better place. They just didn't trade a lot.
They earned their trust by actions.

I paid cash first (or, possibly sent items, I can't recall) to a trader with a higher rating.
Look at my freaking rating! Have I earned trust here? I think so. Look at my post count! Have I shown that I'm in it for the long haul? I think so.
Guess what!
I don't care. He had a higher rating and didn't offer a simu-ship. I didn't even ask. As a lower rated trader, I CHOSE TO PAY FIRST. Why? He's earned the right for me to SHOW him that extension of trust.

I also had a guy send me product first (I don't recall trade rating, but it was relatively high... more than mine, IIRC) because I'd blown through my trade allowance from that particular pay period (this is a common theme with me... blowing through my "allowance" for trading & buying within the 1st week <G>). He did it based on the trust I'd earned through my established reputation & presence on the boards here.
He was paid right after payday.

What is my (rambling) point?
There are a few.

1) Shut up & quit bickering. We're here for the same purpose, presumably.
2) Respect the other persons opinion. Don't make them qualify it. It is opinion just because it IS. Also, don't try to pass off opinions as fact. it's annoying.
3) If you don't like the other persons rules on trading. Get over it & just don't trade. there is NO reason for hard feelings. It doesn't reflect their feelings on you (typically), just their willingness to go out on a limb. My willingness happens to be nearly zero!
4) There are reasons the established traders tend to feel the way they do and, perhaps, it's not just a cranky "Old Guard."
5)You can present and discuss your OPINIONS without being snarky.
And finally
6) Shut up & quit bickering.

If anyone is offended by the "Shut up" remarks... I'd apologize, but it'd be insincere. If you're insulted by being told to stop arguing, you're probably feeling guilty about it because you realize you were starting to get out of hand.
I didn't mean it in an offensive manner, simply an abrupt and straight-forward one. I hope you understand.

Happy trading to all, and to all a good night.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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Post by MagickalMemories » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:10 am

Check this out, as reference...
The guy had a TWENTY TWO (22) feedback score and has TWO bad trader reports on him.

I'm not assuming guilt yet but, if he IS guilty, he's a PRIME example of why I don't ship/send first to lower rated traders.

viewtopic.php?t=37406&sid=7254ba64538ec ... 1e541c5457

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

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Bloodcircle ( 374 )
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...

Post by Bloodcircle » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:41 am

I don't usually do this, but here my $0.02.

I too have been following this thread for the last couple days. I believe that everyone is intitled to their own opinion and I agree with much of what has been said on both sides.
My views on cash being the same/different as trading & the "who ships first"- I believe that as a buyer, you should pay first because you're paying for product, no matter how you look at it, but...as it's been said, this IS Bartertown. :)

Trades/Sales/Buying:
If the person has been around awhile or if I've dealt with them before, I have no problem shipping first/same/last, regardless of they're rating. Whereas a person that just joined up and I've never dealt with them, I'd ask them to send first or if they weren't comfortable with that then I'd even offer to ship at roughly the same time if they provided they can supply tracking info so I may confirm that they have indeed shipped (me shipping within 24hrs and tracking info provided also).

As for Ratings:
If I'm doing a transaction here on Bartertown, then guess what? I go by the persons Rating/Feedback they have here, not elsewhere. I've been coming here for almost 3 years now and I learned early on that just because a person say's that their feedback on eBay is 600+ and 50+ on another trading site, that doesn't mean that it's true. I'm out a couple hundred $$$ because of this sad fact.

I've worked hard to build my rep here as a reliable person and as a fast shipper and I happen to like the idea that there are people here who find me trustworthy enough to send me something and not worry about getting ripped off. I feel the same way with many of the members here, some having either a high or low rating doesn't matter, it's how we've conducted ourselves during our transactions that do.

That's all for now. There's more I could say but I'm tired and rambling on
The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

Lower rating always ships first, (unless I have dealt with you before and on good terms). Sorry, that's just the way it is.

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Maybell1582 ( 160 )
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Post by Maybell1582 » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:50 am

I guess I will throw in my Two cents.

IMO I feel this is the most important rule of Bartertown when dealing is buy, sell, or trade.
It boils down to this:
Don't like it? Don't do the deal.
Simple.

It seems all parties can agree to the above rule.

I dont think any of this is a big deal follow the above rule.
If some guy thinks buying is different from trading and you dont like it, who cares move on.

I see a lot of people being put off and I have not seen anything overall positive from anyone except a few. (maybe some will view my post as negative)

I guess what I am saying is people take your own advice and if some dude bugs you because he said, "Hey dude I know you have like 6000 Rating but I dont want to ship first to you because buying is different from trading LOLZ!!!" share it with some friends if you have to but I really dont think it should be posted in on the general forum unless it was a deal gone sour etc. But that is my Viewpoint.

I am not put off by the "old guard posts", or the lower rating posts. I just think this thread needs to die now I think whats been said has been said and lets just all move on.

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Brian Khazad ( 110 )
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Post by Brian Khazad » Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:07 am

One of the nice things about Bartertown is that you can make your own rules that you prefer to trade by. No one has to follow them if they don't wish to - but you can also decide to not trade with someone if they don't follow the rules you prefer to stick to.

Speaking only for myself, generally speaking if I'm buying something and not trading for it, I would expect to pay first. However, my last "trade" here was a situation in which I paid first - and NEVER received ANYTHING from him, despite filing with the USPS, his cops, and posting here in the Bad Trader forum. After that debacle, my trading rules are quite a bit stricter.

One, if you're buying from me (in the rare event that I'm actually selling), I expect you to pay first. My rating might not be quite as high as MM's, but it's respectable enough to show that I've payed my dues and proven my reliability where trades are concerned. If someone doesn't like this, that's fine - they can choose not to buy from me, and we'll both go our separate ways.

Conversely, if I'm buying from someone else, it depends entirely on their feedback rating. If it's high, sure - I'll pay first and no problem with it. If their rating is low, forget it - the items get sent once I've received payment and have made sure it's going to clear.

I realize that some people might say this is hypocritical, and that's fine - again, the beauty of Bartertown is that both sides have the option to trade or not to trade.

/Rant

-Dwarf

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ancientsociety ( 830 )
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Post by ancientsociety » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:09 pm

Maybell1582: That is by far the creepiest avatar I've ever seen.
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.

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oaflord ( 196 )
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Post by oaflord » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:55 pm

ancientsociety wrote:Maybell1582: That is by far the creepiest avatar I've ever seen.
I concur...
References owed to me: fhoenix, razley, MEversbergII
References owed by me: None.
MagickalMemories wrote:I think it was best said by Oaflord, with his 14 rating. Smart fella, there.
MagickalMemories wrote:Oaflord... You're a Dork! (Put THAT in your sig line!)
MagickalMemories wrote:Oaf... Yer still a flippin' idiot. Some things just don't change. :wink:
Magickalmemories wrote:That oaflord! He's one heck of a great guy!
MagickalMemories wrote:Oh, God, oAF! You did it. You drank it. Now, you're dooooooomed.
MagickalMemories wrote:No... it makes you a HERO! (in reference to me)

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DOCAGREN ( 52 )
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Post by DOCAGREN » Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:28 pm

oaflord wrote:
ancientsociety wrote:Maybell1582: That is by far the creepiest avatar I've ever seen.
I concur...
Let me be the 3rd...

Difference between Sale and Trade.

If I'm buying or selling something to/from someone else I would expect the buyers to payment to arrive and be cashed before shipping.

Trade, either straight up.. or if they have massively more feedback postive feedbacks then I will ship 1st or vice vrs... Yet feedback here isn't perfect, I know before the feedback system moved here that I should have had more then I do now.. and somehow I beleive I have doubles at the beginning but.. it still works.

What use to be nice was that non-BT members could post feedback to it.. but hey that progress for U
Matthew

And in the End there is only, he who dies with the most Toys!!!

In Memory of Russ Manduca 7/22/67-1/8/08

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MagickalMemories ( 794 )
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Post by MagickalMemories » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:41 am

I guess I will throw in my Two cents.

IMO I feel this is the most important rule of Bartertown when dealing is buy, sell, or trade.
It boils down to this:
Don't like it? Don't do the deal.
Simple.

It seems all parties can agree to the above rule.

I dont think any of this is a big deal follow the above rule.
If some guy thinks buying is different from trading and you dont like it, who cares move on.
The creepiest/best avatar and the PERFECT rule.

Well said!

I think you hit the nail on the head. It probably IS the one thing we'd all agree on... though I'd be willing to wager that "Never ship or pay first to a brand new user with a ZERO rating" and "Never ship or pay first to Ticknor" are two that we'd all, likely, agree on, as well.

if you're buying from me (in the rare event that I'm actually selling), I expect you to pay first. My rating might not be quite as high as MM's, but it's respectable enough to show that I've payed my dues and proven my reliability where trades are concerned.
While I DO consider mine to be high, I realize it's not NEAR the highest.
That being said... look at our ratings. As of writing this, your is -I think- a 90. Mine is (I don't recall exactly) somewhere in the neighborhood of DOUBLE that.
Guess what.

If you had something I wanted, you'd get one of two emails from me.
It's about a 50/50 shot on which one (if you read my earlier post, you understand).

One ends with something like, "I've already spent my allowance for this pay period. Will you ship first or hold the items until I get paid (with a specific date of when I get paid)..."
The other is "Your rating speaks for itself. I'm happy to pay first or simu-ship, if you want."

You have a high rating and a respectable presence here on Btown.

THAT is what I was talking about.

Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

"...I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds.” – Gilbert Lowell

Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

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NuWishA ( 60 )
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Post by NuWishA » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:07 am

Wasn't Privateer Press's trading board closed because of a guy we ran off here, and even tried to warn them about?

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GMMStudios ( 148 )
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Post by GMMStudios » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:42 am

EDIT: I'm tired..

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ancientsociety ( 830 )
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Post by ancientsociety » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:50 pm

NuWishA wrote:Wasn't Privateer Press's trading board closed because of a guy we ran off here, and even tried to warn them about?
Yep...
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.

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Linrandir ( 108 )
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Post by Linrandir » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:56 pm

A few comments, since we're starting to go a little bit off track.

1. The unregistered user feedback was disabled after certain people decided to spam negatives. IIRC DarkSoul had something like...-452 rating. Needless to say, that function was disabled.

2. Yes, and PP did ask me for his IP address and modus operandi. The decision to close the scrapyard was, IMO, made to reduce PP's liability in case that certain individual started his usual crap (which he did).

3. That is a CREEPY-ASS Avatar.
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peacemystic ( 720 )
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Lower rating

Post by peacemystic » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:21 pm

Sending money first to someone with a zero or low rating is like buying a 52 inch plasma screen tv,off of someone you just met at a bar and taking there word that when you get home the tv will work just Dandy!!!

If your that silly...you have no one to blame but yourself! :lol:

Cheers
Peace
Trade or Sale lower rating ships first,comfirmation number given and expected apon postage.
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NuWishA ( 60 )
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Post by NuWishA » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:58 am

Its just the rayman bunnies, aint it?

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