How is "BUYING" different than trading??

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Slappy ( 186 )
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Post by Slappy » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:50 pm

There is no difference between money and minis.

If you have a low rating, you are sending first, completely regardless if I am sending you money for the miniatures. If you have a semi-high rating, then we will send at the same time.

Anyone that tries to concoct there is a difference is not using what is known as "logic". A few episodes of the original Star Trek will straighten you out.

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starslayer ( 560 )
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Post by starslayer » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:50 am

Wow Young Wolf you are very selective on what you quote. :roll:
You want to talk about my using the word "conceited",but you didn't quote Massawyrm using it FIRST.
Hmmmm.....
My use of the word was solely in response to his in the previous post.

I'm not "running anyone off". I'm not judging anyones opinion by their trade rating...if I don't agree with someone I'll say it.

Again, you DON"T read what I post. I didn't say low rating always sends first. But you don't quote where I say it time and again.

Gee, lets just do away with trade ratings here all together. No trading at all, we'll just sell everything and the buyer can always ship first. That will make things simple. :-D

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starslayer ( 560 )
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Post by starslayer » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:56 am

Massawyrm wrote:
DCtoy and Massawyrm, you guys sound angry....
Oh god no. Just turned off. Having been a longtime member of a number of trading communities over the years I've never seen such a CONCEIT on the part of a community. I've never seen "paying for something" referred to as "shipping first" before. It caught me off guard.
Missed quoting this Young Wolf??
Who is selective quoting?

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YoungWolf777 ( 1120 )
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Post by YoungWolf777 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:31 pm

(I had a fairly long post constructed yesterday afternoon, but it was lost when the forum went down yet again. So, maybe that's for the best all around as it's painfully obvious that I have been spectacularly unsuccessful in conveying what I am trying to say.)

ancientsociety
- Good grief, please relax. I misspoke by including you in saying people were "angry." I apologize for that and have edited my post. As for rule vs. standard, they are equal to one another in the English language. I could quote dictionary definitions where each word is used in the others definition, (and had planned to do so in my lost post) but that could be construed as snarky and I've decided that I don't want that. Suffice it to say that that is a very fine hair to split.

starslayer - Yes, I did read all of the posts. Yes, I did see that Massawyrm used the word conceit first. But I also saw the lofty attitude with which his posts were met. As a member of this community, I don't appreciate that sort of treatment towards a new member and felt I should say something. My reference to selective quoting was specifically directed at ancientsociety in the post directly above mine. I apologize if that was not clear. By excluding the 2 words "So what?" from my statement, he made it appear as if I was bragging about my status on the PPS forums, when the inverse was the true intent.

All - I'm going to follow Linrandir's lead and simply post my opinions. Feel free to regard or disregard them at your own leisure.

Opinion #1:
Selling is different than trading/bartering. The very words "sell" and "barter" have differing definitions:

Barter: to trade by exchange of commodities rather than by the use of money.

Sell: to transfer (goods) to or render (services) for another in exchange for money; dispose of to a purchaser for a price.

Opinion #2:
As such, I view buying a miniature on Bartertown as no different than buying one from any e-tailer. If I'm buying, I expect to pay first. If I'm selling, I expect to be paid first.

Opinion #3:
While the ranking system here on Bartertown is admirable, it is far from foolproof. Even as a casual observer I can think of at least 2 different ways to pad one's rankings. While I applaud its intent as a guide to the possible trustworthiness of a prospective buying/trading partner, I find that judging the worth of a human being based solely on that ranking system to be foolhardy at best.

Opinion #4:
Discounting experience in trading/buying/selling elsewhere simply because it's "not Bartertown" is shortsighted. Some of my best dealings online have been with folks who have little to no rating here, some are not even members here. I hesitate to think how they might be treated simply because they were new here.

Opinion #5:
Like Linrandir, I also detest the word "noob" and all of it's derivative variations. Referring to a new member as such not only is insulting to that member, it fosters the entire "us vs. them" clique-ish mentality. I would like to not see it used at all on this or any other forum. (But especially this one.)

These are my opinions. They're not going to change, nor am I trying to foist them upon anyone else. The original post asked if anyone else felt the same way. I don't.

Peace.

--YW7--

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Post by Lormax » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:34 pm

Awww, if you guys stop your pissing match, what will I have to read today at work?

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Post by titan136 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:54 pm

I once posted an off topic comment and was warned by a bartertown watchman for threadjacking, yet noone seems to care how off topic this thread has gotten.

Most of this new vs. old and ratings discussion should really have been done through PMs

-----Regarding Selling Vs. Trading-----
I think that if the seller refuses in any case to send before recieving payment, thats their choice. There's really no common ettiquette you can force one someone like that. They should realize that if they adhere to this, that they will probably find fewer buyers.

There's no set-in-stone rule that says that trading is different from selling on BT. Thats all a matter of Opinion and the difference is really up to each trader.

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Slappy ( 186 )
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Post by Slappy » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:27 pm

If I'm selling, I expect to be paid first.
Why? Give me a logical answer.
Discounting experience in trading/buying/selling elsewhere simply because it's "not Bartertown" is shortsighted.
There are no repercussions on eBay for scamming someone on Bartertown.
They're not going to change, nor am I trying to foist them upon anyone else.
That’s fine. People with low ratings will still be sending me minis first before I pay them.

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Post by ancientsociety » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:28 pm

Sorry Lormax, like I said in my last post, YoungWolf wins @ the intertubes!

After all, he gets to pick and choose his responses to what questions/critiques others present to him (even going so far as to edit his previous postings to make them sound better).

I will, however, say this to those who believe that their word is gospel and that they can critique the flaws of this community without providing alternative solutions of their own (also known as "constructive criticism")or politely responding to members queries about their position (also known as "discourse").

If you don't like it and you think you can do better - START YOUR OWN SITE.

If you think that all the rules suck, the ref system is archaic, the "attitude" of established members is hostile, that you are so knowlegable about the ins and outs of trading that you could do it better, then DIY.

Bartertown has been around for years - before you got here, before I got here - and it will be around long after we're both gone. The system, the forums, the rules, the standards - all of that is what it is today because of the hard work of Adam and the admins, input/constructive criticism/discourse by the community, and the experiences of the members. Things work differently here than on other sites because of those things.

This is Bartertown. It's not Ebay, it's not an e-tailer, it's not any other trading site.

It takes all of us trusting one another, having open dialogue, and providing our advice to make this community what it is. However, it only takes 1 person to rip off the entire community (yes, it HAS happened) and ruin this site (which thankfully didn't happen). Part of that trust is based on the ref system. Is it perfect? Probably not (what feedback system is?) but it's what we have and it's pretty damn good.

If the opinions of the old cogers on this thread have offended anyone, then the best thing to do is SAY SOMETHING. Tell us why you're offended, tell us what you think could be improved, provide your input! Silently sulking away or, worse, playing the victim here doesn't help anyone. Have a discourse with us.

What do I mean by that? Well, I went to a great books college - one of the few remaining in the US - and it changed my life. You read a book, you sat down in class, you had a discourse about the ideas presented. Were things said that were cruel or snarky or elitist? Sure, but it was DISCOURSE. It was also full of ideas and other perspectives that could change your mind. The whole idea of a great books school was open discourse, about talking, about defending your position, about telling people how you felt. Those ideas are lost in modern American society. People like to play the victim, or gossip, or avoid confrontation. Nothing good can come of that. A community is formed by people and it survives on the free flow of communications and ideas.
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.

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YoungWolf777 ( 1120 )
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Post by YoungWolf777 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:13 pm

ancientsociety - At no point that I'm aware of have I played the victim, martyr, or what ever else you keep claiming. You certainly seem hell bent on making me into one though, and frankly it's rather tiresome. I edited one post, and I publicly acknowledged it. The original response still resides in your quote. How is that making me sound better? :yeahright:

Where have I claimed that "my word is gospel" or anything close to it? I haven't said "all the rules suck", I've applauded them. I have tried to point out a difference between a rule (Rule #1, etc.) and a guideline (shipping suggestions) though. That seems to have been lost in the noise. That is the main topic of discussion as I understand it. If not, please tell me just what it really is?

I've posted my opinions in an easy to read format, yet that seemingly isn't sufficient? I'm about to answer a query to one right now in fact.

As I understand discourse, that is what we are having here. I'm pretty sure that you know that as well, what with your fancy book learning and such. Perhaps others that you are currently having a discourse with might actually have attended college? Maybe even read a book or a thousand? (Yes, that was snarky. Couldn't help myself.)

If using netspeak like "YoungWolf wins @ the intertubes! " passes for discourse with you, then I must bow to your superior knowledge of communication. Now I could be wrong here, but saying things like "If you don't like it and you think you can do better - START YOUR OWN SITE." could be construed as what I gathered before and commented on: "There's an old guard here. You aren't part of it so get lost." Is telling someone to go away and start their own site (in all caps no less) not telling someone to get lost? It certainly seems so to me.

"If you think that all the rules suck, the ref system is archaic, the "attitude" of established members is hostile, that you are so knowlegable about the ins and outs of trading that you could do it better, then DIY." Is this not more of the same? To me, you are reinforcing that attitude perception. I certainly hope that wasn't the case. It sounds pretty harsh to me.

Yes, Bartertown was around long before me, and will be long after I give up the ghost or the hobby, whichever comes first. (Most likely the former.) I applaud the efforts of all involved to make it what it is today. I came here after the demise of the Bodgers Scrapyard as it was recommended to me by a friend. For the most part, I've really liked what I've seen here. Other than the recent instability of the forum itself, I've enjoyed myself here. This thread is sort of a speedbump, but it too will pass.

I've not offered any ideas on how to "fix" the reference system as at present I don't have one that I think is workable. Every idea I have had boils back down to the same thing: you must trust that both parties reporting a transaction are being honest. That is what you said, and I agree with it. I simply am of the opinion that blind faith in any one system will inherently doom it to failure. I prefer to look at the "big picture", or at the very least have a second opinion on hand.

Slappy
- I notice that you didn't quote the buying side of that opinion I posted. If I'm buying, I expect to pay first. If I'm on the other side of that transaction, then I expect the reciprocal to be the same. I work this way even amongst my close friends in face to face transactions. If there is a delay in raising the money (on either side) we wait until the money is present to complete the deal. It avoids numerous issues later on if things go awry. Buying something without having cash on hand is called buying on credit. I'm not a bank, I don't give temporary, short term, no interest loans. To me, rating has nothing to do with it. Money for minis. Simple. I'll ask you your own question. Why not? Give me a logical answer please. So you are saying that if you are buying from someone with a higher rating than yourself, then you expect to pay first, or will you point to your rating and ask for different treatment?

As for your other comment "There are no repercussions on eBay for scamming someone on Bartertown." I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with the opinion that I posted. It's my opinion that if someone has a fairly high rating on ebay from several (at least 3) different sources, then the odds are that they are not going to rip me off here on bartertown, even if they are new and have little / no rating here. The opinion has nothing to do with repercussions, so could you please clarify your statement?

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Post by ancientsociety » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:05 pm

:roll:

YoungWolf,

Contrary to what mommy and daddy tell you, not everything is about you.

My last post was initially a reply to Lormax and then I was talking about members who " believe that their word is gospel and that they can critique the flaws of this community without providing alternative solutions of their own (also known as "constructive criticism") or politely responding to members queries about their position (also known as "discourse"). "

If you think that above is an accurate description of you (which, apparently you do), then start your own site, like I said, and show us all your supreme awesomeness.

Oh and I mentioned by "learning", simply as an example, not as some elitist platform to look down on all you proles.

And I apologize for utilizing internet memes, henceforth I shall exclude them from all further talk, my good man.
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.

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YoungWolf777 ( 1120 )
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Post by YoungWolf777 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:54 pm

ancientsociety - That would be exactly why I've taken to addressing each section of my posts to the individual in question. I assumed that you were referring to me as I seem to be a lightning rod for your ire. If you were not addressing me then I can live with that. It's not a difficult leap of logic to make when you name me by name and then pronoun in your previous two paragraphs however.

You are correct though, it's not all about me, (No matter how snarky you choose to say it.) nor is is all about you either. This is about all of us. Surely you can see that? :?:

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Slappy ( 186 )
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Post by Slappy » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:57 pm

If I'm buying, I expect to pay first.
Well that’s how things are when you’re dealing with a legitimate business. Random people on the Internet aren’t a legitimate business.
Give me a logical answer please
Because they both have the same value. If you’re willing to send minis to someone first before getting minis back from them, then you’re doing the exact same thing. Your sending something of value to somebody with the promise that you will get something of value in return. Just because it’s money doesn’t change anything, it only changes it in your confused mind.
So you are saying that if you are buying from someone with a higher rating than yourself, then you expect to pay first, or will you point to your rating and ask for different treatment?
Not exactly. People with reasonably high ratings I have no problem with. Usually if somebody has 20+ next to their name I will trust them and we can just send at the same time. However…

If their English is sloppy, if they are late replying to emails, if they are wishy washy about the trade, all these things can add up to me demanding they send first. I have been doing this so long that I have an intuition for this stuff.
I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with the opinion that I posted.
Dur, it’s simple. You’re implying that their reputation elsewhere is some kind of guarantee they will be reputable here. It’s not. They could have a perfect rating on eBay and scam the hell out of anyone here. If they scam somebody here, they are finished (except for Ticknor, who is immortal). That’s why only their reputation here matters. I mean, are you saying I can get on eBay with a 0 rating and try to sell a car and send them a link to all my B-Town references? Stop being silly. You’re making yourself look like a real ass and I can already tell some people on here are going to avoid buying and trading with you just based off your attitude alone.

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Post by Phillysniper » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:08 am

Ok Ive been reading this thread for a couple of days and I have my own opinions.

On BUYING Vs TRADING
Im new here and have no references:
If I entered into a TRADE with someone, I would send my figs first. Its about respect and references on here. I wouldnt expect someone who has been trading <on> for a while to send me ANYTHING first.
Now if I was BUYING from someone and they didnt want me to pay via paypal <for> I wouldnt buy from that person if they insisted on me sending first.
1. It would just feel different to me if someone scammed me out of figs, I would either stop playing the game or start to collect the figs again. Would I be upset, yes. Would it prevent me from trading again, no. I may or may not pursue other actions to recoup my figs.
2. If I got scammed out of cash, it would hurt and I would be pissed. Id probably pursue legal recourse.
To me money has MORE value than figs. I have gotten figs for nothing in trades, as gifts etc. I know how hard I work for my MONEY. Being out money, to most people, just feels worse.


Now I can understand how the "more active" traders on here feel about this. I can even see their point of view. But to me cash is cash and figs are figs. If cash is changing hands, then its a sale and the person with the money should send first IMHO, regardless of their rating. Because cash means Capitalism and being such you pay before you get your goods. That being said, they shouldnt be stupid about it and protect themselves. Use paypal or some other method where they have protection.

I had more that I wanted to say but I lost my train of thought trying to win an ebay auction :lol:

This has been very interesting to read and it HAS made me think twice about BUYING things on B-Town.
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The Drop Zone ( 98 )
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Post by The Drop Zone » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:30 am

Slappy wrote:
If I'm selling, I expect to be paid first.
Why? Give me a logical answer.

ok let me give it to you

when you enter in a "sale" you have entered and "typed" for online purposes but as ebay puts it you have entered into a contract
and in this world the majority of the time when you agree to buy a product from anyone anywhere you pay up front get your product then deal is done....
Discounting experience in trading/buying/selling elsewhere simply because it's "not Bartertown" is shortsighted.
There are no repercussions on eBay for scamming someone on Bartertown.



That’s fine. People with low ratings will still be sending me minis first before I pay them.
thats your choice and you are entitled to it :)

but ill give you a recent example i bought a collectible mini here last week and i outrated him by a wide margin i paid up front, again sale... he then shipped... deal done

if its a trade i almost always abide by lower rating ships first not all the time it does depend on the individual

thats how i feel as a trader and as a business
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David Phillips ( 558 )
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Post by David Phillips » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:07 am

I have been following this talk for some time and find it very interesting and very heated. While I agree with some and disagree with others I am getting a little tired of the snide remarks, name calling and what not. I’m just an old curmudgeon that has not fallen completely into the whole anonymities of the internet thing. But that’s just me. This is partially because I’m a grump when it comes to this and partially because I teach Elementary school and would not hold with such behavior with my students. Of course we are all adults so I guess that’s diffent.

In any case, money is a funny thing. If you look on any United States bill you will find the phrase “This note is legal tender for all debts, public and privateâ€

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