How is "BUYING" different than trading??

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GMMStudios ( 148 )
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Post by GMMStudios » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:26 pm

I'm not angry at all. I know it came off that way and I don't know what to do about it, but I addressed that in my first post.

I didn't say that selling on Bartertown equalled an online retailer. I'm saying no matter where you go, payment comes first, and used it as an example.

insidius ( 76 )
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Post by insidius » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:06 am

Buying is no different from trading.

All money is is a piece of paper saying that I have something equally valuable backing this dollar up, usually gold or silver, and this money represents that commodity as such.
mon·ey: noun; a good that acts as a medium of exchange in transactions.
Money is a good like everything else; if your rating is lower, you ship first whether money is involved or not.

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carmachu ( 686 )
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Post by carmachu » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:50 am

I'm noticing as I read. for the most part, "buying is different, than trading" crowd seem to be all the low or no ratings crowd....

*shrug* Unfortuantely, beyond the half and half method, I dont know another way....

Strangelooper ( 28 )
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Post by Strangelooper » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:37 am

I don't regard buying as different from trading. Lower rating ships or pays first. This place is built on reputation/rating.

Private citizens are not businesses; there are very few protections if you get stiffed. Peruse the bad trader forum if you think otherwise.

I would never send large amounts of money first, unless the trader had a very high rating, no/few bad trade reports, AND had been on bartertown for years
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MEDEVL ( 362 )
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Post by MEDEVL » Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:01 pm

Interesting topic...I agree that on Bartertown new people should expect to ship first in most circumstances. That's not concieted IMHO, just common sense. In the beginning I seem to remember that it was all pretty much simo-ship for the first couple of years while we tested the waters. But it only takes one Steve Jones to come along and pee in the pool to change "business as usual". He is, of course, not the only scam artist to hit Bartertown. There are and will always be more so I just don't see how ANYBODY in their right mind would send payment first to somebody with a low rating. In my eyes buying is NO different than trading as we are simply exchanging goods of similar value. One might be merchandise and the other currency but they are both inherently valuable and it would be illegal to steal either one of them. Why should sending $100 worth of space marines for your 3 Leman Russ tanks be thought of as any different than sending $100 check or money order??
As for the "you always pay first" theory, have you guys ever eaten in a restaraunt that wasn't McDonald's?? Or had your plumbing worked on?? How about had your oil changed?? All of those examples would have you pay AFTER the service is provided and I think that's the crux of the idea. Although we might all be trading and buying stuff (normally thought of in a retail environment where paying first is commonplace) we are doing it under the framework of Bartertown which provides us with that SERVICE. In my eyes that makes this a more service oriented experience where completing the deal by paying comes AFTER being able to scrutinize it. That way I can decide if the minis I bought were as advertised, were packed well, were shipped promptly or even arrived at all. Once those things are done to my satisfaction I'll pay, otherwise we need to discuss things further to complete the deal. If I choose to give up that priveledge to people with a high rating then so be it, but I think that should be the default position. I'm not advocating holding the deal hostage or renegotiating in the middle, but if I recieve a box or slag that was advertised as Golden Demon Space Marines its' a lot easier to come to a reasonable solution if I still have my money in my pocket rather than the liar who sold them to me.
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starslayer ( 560 )
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Post by starslayer » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:26 pm

Massawyrm wrote:
DCtoy and Massawyrm, you guys sound angry....
Oh god no. Just turned off. Having been a longtime member of a number of trading communities over the years I've never seen such a conceit on the part of a community. I've never seen "paying for something" referred to as "shipping first" before. It caught me off guard.
No offense,but don't you think its a little "conceited" to just pop into Bartertown, you've been a member a week, you have no verified trades here, a 0 rating. And you think somebody with a 200+ rating who's been here for years should just trust you and send you money?
Wow.

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Post by carmachu » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:10 pm

Massawyrm wrote: Oh god no. Just turned off. Having been a longtime member of a number of trading communities over the years I've never seen such a conceit on the part of a community. I've never seen "paying for something" referred to as "shipping first" before. It caught me off guard.

And which other trading communities would those be, out of curiousity....?

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GMMStudios ( 148 )
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Post by GMMStudios » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:20 pm

starslayer wrote:
Massawyrm wrote:
DCtoy and Massawyrm, you guys sound angry....
Oh god no. Just turned off. Having been a longtime member of a number of trading communities over the years I've never seen such a conceit on the part of a community. I've never seen "paying for something" referred to as "shipping first" before. It caught me off guard.
No offense,but don't you think its a little "conceited" to just pop into Bartertown, you've been a member a week, you have no verified trades here, a 0 rating. And you think somebody with a 200+ rating who's been here for years should just trust you and send you money?
Wow.
He is entitled to his opinion.

If you don't want to trade with someone just don't. That's the beauty of Bartertown :).

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starslayer ( 560 )
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Post by starslayer » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:06 pm

I agree DCtoy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and can make their own decision.

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Post by Zaakath » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:55 pm

I have to chime in here. I'd like to think I fall into one of the longtimers, bee here for near on 3.5 years and have almost a 90 trade rating.

When I first started it was like some have said: Lower rating ships first.

Ship being payment up front or the package in a trade.

I've seena trend in the last few months that seems to suggest people can't see the point in that sort of system. Now, when the ratings are similar (within 10 of each other and below 50, IMO) care is needed.

But if a guy with a rating of 10 expects someone with 150, or more to send anything first, and here's what I think the issue really is, when it was initiated from Bartertown, he's nuts.

People like ChaosOrc and The Drop Zone (to name some of the retailers) are legit buisnesses and should be treated as one. They have the full right to expect payment in advance. Others such as myself, who don't have the backing of a buisness liscense or someother form of legal verification base what we do here off of the Reference system. We have to as we have nothing else to go on.

Here's where people suggest their Ebay rating, or a rating from some other system.

Why would we accept something like that here, where they don't gaurantee anything (in Ebay's case) and how much do I know of the other site(s) that might be mentioned? Nothing? Very little? What does that give me to go off of as to the nature of the site, how well they keep track of "Bad Traders" and other unwanted scammers.

All in all, my opinion definetely resides in the Buying is NO different from trading side, but, within reason. If it's started here, it's B-towns norms, not Ebays or some other sites.

Just my opinion though.
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Post by Massawyrm » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:23 pm

but don't you think its a little "conceited"
You took the wrong context of the word. I was using the word to mean "A thought or an idea."

However, to answer your question - no I don't. As a noob I have a very different perspective - as has been noted. Someone pointed out that it seems mostly the noobs that seem to think the transactions are different - but the converse is absolutely true. Mostly the long timers seem to think there is no difference. And one could just as easily argue that their perspective is based upon their stature in the community and their ability to DEEM it different to their benefit. Problem is that communities like this do not exist on long timers alone - they need infusions of new blood - new product to be traded, new parties to be interested in product others haven't been interested in. And if those new parties are run off because of an elite structure that favors longtimers to a degree not present in other like-communities - well, then everyone loses.

Fact of the matter is, this post certainly has run me off. Once the trades in process are finished I might or might not be back - but I've certainly decided not to actively post again. And I'll never offer product for money - I simply won't have the "clout" to warrent the protections that come with Check, Money Order or Paypal (an argument you never bothered to address.) This, of course, is no big loss. But it is what it is.
And you think somebody with a 200+ rating who's been here for years should just trust you and send you money?
Not what I was saying. People with a zero rating probably shouldn't be selling in a trading community anyway - that's what Ebay's for - but your OP was about a guy who's had 10 good trades here. For some folks, that constitutes an awful lot of trading. Certainly not in the epic upper stratosphere with the likes of you - but certainly decent enough that he deserves better than to be mocked simply because you have a big number by your name. And certainly decent enough that it is not unreasonable to expect someone to pay before they ship their product.

Now if he was asking you to send carefully concealed cash rather than check, MO or paypal - by all means, mock away. Only a boob sends 'cash' to someone they don't know. But that wasn't your problem. Your problem was the audacity of the seller expecting this site to work like virtually every other site out there.

I don't disagree with your discomfort about trading with someone you feel is unproven, nor your decision to nix the trade because you were unhappy with the terms. But the patent mocking of anyone who feels that buying is different than trading?
And which other trading communities would those be, out of curiousity....?
Maxminis, Hordelings (both DDM specific sites) as well as a few local and statewide groups (mostly done through Yahoo groups and the like.)
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oaflord ( 196 )
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Post by oaflord » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:13 pm

My two cents (even if they are Canadian...)

I have been on Bartertown for about 9 months now, and have completed 7 transactions (and 1 in progress). I have made trades and purchases but I have yet to have sold anything. In my posts I say $$$ would be nice but the figs are the priority. This is true, and to be honest, I wouldn't expect anyone to buy from me until my rating is higher than it currently is. Is there a level at which I would start considering selling only? Hard to say, but I do know I will always need figs... That being said, would I buy (and pay first) from someone with a lower rating than me? Hasn't happened yet...
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Post by ancientsociety » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:40 pm

However, to answer your question - no I don't. As a noob I have a very different perspective - as has been noted. Someone pointed out that it seems mostly the noobs that seem to think the transactions are different - but the converse is absolutely true. Mostly the long timers seem to think there is no difference. And one could just as easily argue that their perspective is based upon their stature in the community and their ability to DEEM it different to their benefit.
The "conceit" of us old cogers you talk about is nothing more than experience. Long-time BTers started out with low ratings just like everyone else. They acquired those high ratings by following the rules of this community and going by its standards. ALL of us, at one time or another, have shipped/paid first. No matter how high your ratings are, there will still be someone higher who may ask you to ship/pay first, so we STILL do it occasionally.

The PROBLEM occurs when new noobs believe that the long-time, established standards do not or should not apply to them. THAT is conceit.

Problem is that communities like this do not exist on long timers alone - they need infusions of new blood - new product to be traded, new parties to be interested in product others haven't been interested in. And if those new parties are run off because of an elite structure that favors longtimers to a degree not present in other like-communities - well, then everyone loses.
BT WANTS noobs to voice their opinions. We WANT to have a reasonable discourse of ideas. However, we ALL have had (and continue to have) to conform to the community's standards. We've paid (and continue to pay) our dues. For instance, I just recently had a trade where I had less refs and had to send first - even though I had a 92 rating. Why did I do this? Because its a community standard and I was happy to conform to it.

I simply won't have the "clout" to warrent the protections that come with Check, Money Order or Paypal (an argument you never bothered to address.)
None of these things offers any sort of "protection". Coming from a banking background, being a frequent BTer, and an Ebay seller, I can tell you from experience that none of these is 100% safe - for the buyer or seller - and any of them can be abused.

Not what I was saying. People with a zero rating probably shouldn't be selling in a trading community anyway - that's what Ebay's for - but your OP was about a guy who's had 10 good trades here. For some folks, that constitutes an awful lot of trading. Certainly not in the epic upper stratosphere with the likes of you - but certainly decent enough that he deserves better than to be mocked simply because you have a big number by your name. And certainly decent enough that it is not unreasonable to expect someone to pay before they ship their product.
a 10 rating is only 5 trades. That isn't being "mocked", but is simply being pointed out that 5-10 trades really isn't a very huge cred. However, it IS something. Say the 10-trades-guy sold something to a guy with 0 trades, it would be more than acceptable for him to ask the other to send first. Why? Because he has the higher rating.
Your problem was the audacity of the seller expecting this site to work like virtually every other site out there.
No, the problem was the audactiy of a noob to expect that the BT standards do not apply to him.
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.

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starslayer ( 560 )
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Post by starslayer » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:33 pm

Wel, Ancient Societ pretty much summed it up. Thanks.

P.S You should be getting those IG rules any day now, I was a little late sending them out with Xmas and all.

Honestly, if the guy had a 50 or 60 rating I would probably send first. But I usually ask for a home phone # for security in that case. Someone with a 10 rating doesn't have as much to lose as someone with a very high rating. He can rip a few people off, make a few bucks and leave. Someone with a 200+ rating for example would be ALOT less likely do this. That reputation was earned hard over many trades and a long time.
As I said before, if you can't trust me with a 200+ rating how can you expect me to trust you with a 10 rating?? Just doesn't make sense.

Its funny that most of the "buying is different" crowd have lower ratings. I bet when they get a higher rating they'll change their minds and want the lower rating to send first.....

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Post by Lormax » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:40 pm

As one of those "10 rating" guys..I'd ship first to a buyer with over 100 rating and no negatives...but thats about it. Anything lower and you're coughing up the $$ first. Like someone mentioned, there's a big difference when it comes to exchanging $ then when you exchange merchandise from a legal standpoint.

Just adding my 2 cents

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