Bartertown.com

This came up in another thread. The essential question is:
What is the proper way to handle a package that got lost in the mail?

Say i did a trade with someone - they got the stuff i sent them, but i never got the stuff they sent me. For the sake of argument, assume the package got lost in the mail (i.e. no one is trying to pull a scam). Who sucks up the loss on this one, and why?

This is why both parties should insure their packages. I always insist both packages should be insured. If my trade partner does not want to spend the extra $3-$4 for insurance I generally pass. When I sell an item I offer the option of insurance. I also make it quite clear that if you choose not to buy the insurance and the package is lost or damaged it is your responsiblity.

Well, I partially agree with Ohio on this.
partially because I don't use insurance unless the other party pays for it.

If, however, I dealt with Ohio and he wanted Ins., and I declined (granted I still use D.C., though), the burden would still be up for grabs, IMO, unless a few things were ironed out.

For example. If I declined buy offered a D.C.# and he said, "Fine, but I'll expect you to make right on any missing packages," it would be TOTALLY on me.
If, however, I declined buy offered a D.C.# and he said,"Fine, but please make sure you get a D.C. number," we're back at square one.

This is why people HAVE found it tedious to deal with me in the past.
I do my best, after having a few trades I was dissatisfied with, to hammer out every detail of every phase of the trade.
You WILL tell me EXACTLY what condition your models are in. If I post that I am looking for "X" in "Y" condition or better, and you email me telling me you have "X," but don't mention the condition, I WILL inquire to see if it meets my "Y" standards.
I didn't do this in the past & suffered one big headache of a deal for it. I used to presume that your stuff was in my specified condition if you answered my ad. No longer.
When the deal is finalized, you will get an email specifying the terms...
Your "A" for my "B." You will ship first, on or about "C" date and I will ship on the first Saturday after I receive your items as promised.
Please note the "as promised" line. If I don't get what I was promised, you get your junk back.


Okay, so I rambled.
I think I answered the original post as best I could, though.
I think that it is all relative to the facts of the case.
If it was 2 newbies and they didn't talk about the deal, I think one will end up being S.O.L.
Not that I LIKE the idea... but Schlitz happens.

That's one of the reasons I wish there were mandatory "reads" during account set up. Like with software, you wouldn't HAVE to read it... but you'd have to acknowledge that you did. It would save quite a bit of headache.
--Of course, I understand that the admin's have their hands full already.

Eric

This won't help you any, but I had a buddy of mine get yelled at twice a day, he was shipping over the Canadian border and his package was stuck in customs. He told the guy "look, you paid $300 for the stuff, I insured it for $500, if the package doesn't come, I'll give you your $300 back and I'll split you on the leftovers so you'll get an extra $100.

The problem I see here Magical is that if we make a trade, then you are agreeing to get the agreed upon items "TO" me. If I don't get them then that is "YOUR" responsibility. We didn't make a deal to try to "SHIP" stuff. We made a deal for the items. If your items get lost on there way to me then you are still responsible to meet your obligations, whether that be the traded items, returning my items to me, or paying me an appropriate cash value. If you were to cheap to spend $3 on insurance to protect yourself, then you deserve to be out your miniatures in my opinion. I base this on the way the mail fraud laws are worded. According to the law it is your responsibility to deliver what you promised unless some other arrangements were made "AHEAD" of time. Otherwise you must return the items or $ to the other party.

The problem I see here Magical is that if we make a trade, then you are agreeing to get the agreed upon items "TO" me. If I don't get them then that is "YOUR" responsibility. We didn't make a deal to try to "SHIP" stuff. We made a deal for the items. If your items get lost on there way to me then you are still responsible to meet your obligations, whether that be the traded items, returning my items to me, or paying me an appropriate cash value. If you were to cheap to spend $3 on insurance to protect yourself, then you deserve to be out your miniatures in my opinion. I base this on the way the mail fraud laws are worded. According to the law it is your responsibility to deliver what you promised unless some other arrangements were made "AHEAD" of time. Otherwise you must return the items or $ to the other party.

A good point, but one I just don't buy into. I agree to a trade and you agree to a trade. We agree upon the shipping method to use.
If I ship, and I can prove it, then I am not responsible.
Although USPS insurance does pay to the shipper, I disagree that it is MY responsibility to get it. Though it WOULD be paid to ME, I would turn around and give the money (in full) to YOU as compensation. Therefore, the insurance, as most people use it here, is to protect the RECIPIENT from loss.
Note, I stated that is how most people HERE (who I have encountered the subject with) use it.
According to the law, I am responsible for delivering MY end of the bargain.

We didn't make a deal to try to "SHIP" stuff. We made a deal for the items.

...and there was not an ATTEMPT to ship. It actually WAS shipped (in this hypothetical case).

MY end of the bargain, in a trade, is to put a certain item or items in a box or padded envelope, packaged appropriately, and send it to you using the methods WE agree upon in advance. If I should fail in any part of THAT task, then I am liable. Should they not arrive, THAT is not my fault.

Granted, it is not the recipient's fault, either... You can't blame the shipper because he COULD have bought insurance... the recipient COULD have requested it. How can you assign a blame in that case?

We are all smart enough to understand the USPS postal service. We know that stuff gets lost. We know that things disappear. We know stuff gets broken.
With that knowledge, any LACK of a requirement by the recipient to ensure SOME sort of "insurance" that the item will arrive (or cash value for it), whether it be a Delivery Confirmation number or actual insurance, is a poor decision on THEIR part.
You have to cover your OWN butt here. You can't assume others will do it for you!

Anyone reading this who has sold something to me will tell you, if it was not offered in advance, I ALWAYS offer to pay an extra $.55 for a delivery confirmation number. Always.
If I am selling, I ALWAYS include a D.C. in my shipping terms. Always!

That being said, I am not the "rule" around here. While there are MANY traders who will watch out for the best interests of the other guy, they are few.

Ask Munkey Joe Paints about a deal we did. I had stuff he wanted, he offered to paint in trade for it. The deal he gave me (retail for my stuff, vs. $x per mini) would have had him painting over 60 minis for my.
I pared that down to less than a third of that... voluntarily. It was MY idea.
My point?
You aren't going to see a whole lot of people here that will do that.
Most will watch their OWN backs and not yours.
It is your own responsibility to ensure that YOUR back is being watched!

Eric

I understand what you are saying. Believe me I do. My whole point is that according to the law if the stuff you agreed to send me (hypothetically of course) does not arrive you must return the miniatures i sent you, pay me for them, or replace the miniatures that never arrived. If you don't you have committed fraud. My opinion, your opinion, that is the law as explained to me by a Post Master. I agree with you, I don't trade unless things are set up to make sure that if there is a loss it is covered one way or another. I realize this is a murky subject for some people so I just wanted to make sure everyone knows what the law says on this matter.

Well, I think that if the person wants insurance, then the person requesting it should pay for it, not the other way around.

I agree with Magic. If I send a package, have the delivery conf #, which like Magic, I always get, then I've lived up to my end of the bargain.

I can't control what the post office does.

If you want insurance on the items I'm sending you, great, then send me a money order, or whatever sorce of funds for it first, then I'll gladly add that on for you. That's just an added expense that the sender shouldn't have to incur for no good reason......

To me getting mad at the trader for the package getting lost in the mail is like someone getting mad at the Budweiser brewing company when a drunk driver hits my car.........that's just me though.

Erik

Once again, if you want it to work that way then you need to make that clear with the person you are trading with. If you don't you are liable. Your personnal opinion does not affect the way the law works.

My whole point is that according to the law if the stuff you agreed to send me (hypothetically of course) does not arrive you must return the miniatures i sent you, pay me for them, or replace the miniatures that never arrived. If you don't you have committed fraud. My opinion, your opinion, that is the law as explained to me by a Post Master.

Let me start by saying that I am not saying or implying any lack of truth in your statements. I ask for informational purposes.

Can you provide some sort of link to document this. I'm surprised to hear that there is a law that covers trading items via mail. Also, I'd like to read fuurther into it to see what othger specifics might be involved.

Also, wouldn't you have to prove they didn't arrive?

Eric

insurance is there to protect both, but mostly the sender, not the recipient, the sender is the one obligated the most, in the case of a purchase, and in trades, both are the senders.

i only insure on large trades, small trades arent worth it.

but if a package is lost and the sender didnt insure it, he ought to have to pay reverse shipping charges to send stuff he recieved back, and original shipping to the other person because its not thier fault the package was lost and not insured.

and if someone wants something insured and its a small trade and wont trade for that reason? no skin off my ass because it isnt happening.

Steve