Bartertown.com

This fell into a gray area for posting... Basically, I sold him some stuff and shipped in USPS Priority 3 weeks ago. He's claiming it never arrived and wants his money back. I don't want to file a Bad Trader complaint yet, but I wanted to see if anyone else is having a problem with this trader. I can provide full listing of our PMs.

-Bill

That's why I'm a big big advocate of delivery confirmation. 50 cents is a small price to pay for peace of mind.........

Erik

Agreed. If your sending priority anyways, the 50 cents isnt gonna break you. PLus it saves you from people like this.

Thanks for the comments guys, with a rating of 156 I'm completely unfamiliar with the concept of Delivery Confirmation... I'm pretty sure I did get it, I just have no idea where the number is. I was a little distracted that week; My daughter was born that Thursday after 69 hours of labor. I still shipped on Friday.
Anyways, anybody have anything useful to add to the discussion?

Well, Bill... Let's start with the fact that you currently have a 156 rating.
The burden of proof would fall on him.

Next, we have shipping. Granted, you did not get Delivery Confirmation. Did you keep your receipt? A receipt will not, of course, prove you shipped something to him. It will, however, prove that, at least, you shipped something to HIS CITY (that is listed on your receipt). Figuring out shipping cost, you could always go back and calculate the weight of what you sent to figure out if the price was right... that being a last option, of course.

I have never heard of the guy, so I can't comment on him, personally.

Next, I'd recommend asking Sid, Morlock or Lin to move this to the messages and miscellany section. They get a little edgy when it comes to any sort of a post in here that is not specifically "Bad Trader."

Finally, congratulations on the new gamer in the family. Sorry to hear it took 69 hours to get her first die in her hand (you HAVE bought her some dice of her own already, HAVEN'T YOU?).

Hope that helped.

Eric

Hey Eric,

Good points. Mods, could you move this? I'm not wanting to post a Bad Trader on him as he did send me the cash. It's the asking to return it that makes me wonder.

And no, no dice yet... but I'm thinking on a Marine army. Or maybe the Vostroyans...

Dude!?!?!?

You HAVE to get her some dice.

Preferably the smallest you can find. See, it teaches them early to be responsible with them.
LOL

JK about the small part... but she HAS to have dice!

<G>

Eric
P.S. Did you get my email, Dweomer?

Yeah, dice are great for newborn babies...

*rolls eyes*

Thus the "LOL," Sid.

Geez!


SOMEbody's getting a little "big for his britches."

Oooh. Look at me! I'm a Mod. I'm Cool.

Ain't I great. I nab Jason Ticknor every time he rears his stupid little head.

Blah Blah Blah.
Yay, me!


LOL
Yer awesome, Sid!

Eric
P.S. I just said she should HAVE some... I didn't say she should have them in her crib.
...Well, not unsupervised, anyway.
LOL <----- See? Right there! Another "LOL." <G>

Dweomer wrote:Thanks for the comments guys, with a rating of 156 I'm completely unfamiliar with the concept of Delivery Confirmation... I'm pretty sure I did get it, I just have no idea where the number is. I was a little distracted that week; My daughter was born that Thursday after 69 hours of labor. I still shipped on Friday.
Anyways, anybody have anything useful to add to the discussion?

Firstly, congrats on your newborn. Secondly, you never stated that you got any sort of delivery confirmation, so how am I to know?

You don't have any proof any longer in the way of a receipt, or confirmation, so your choice is realitively simple. Either refund the money or don't..........

There's very little else you CAN do. If you know for sure that you mailed it out, and the fact that you do have a high trade rating, and are looking for advice here kind of backs up that fact that I believe that you did send it out.

Now, if you don't refund this guy's money, you risk him nailing you as a bad trader. Ok, there's one downside. If you refund his money, he may not give you any feedback, good, bad or indifferent.

Basically, what it comes down to, is how much is the risk of being listed as a bad trader worth to you? How much was the trade worth?

Even if you refunded the guy's money, he might STILL list you as a bad trader, because he might think you were out to scam him.

If it were me, I'd let it go, and let the chips fall where they may. You can't control everything the post office does.........

And I know you were distracted with the birth of your baby, but I know when I trade, my confirmations immediately go into a bin by my computer for easy access. That way I always know where they are, or I PM the guy with the numbers, and keep that PM in my save box until the trade is complete, that way I have yet another record of my transaction with him and another copy of the numbers handy. Just a tip.......

Erik

MagickalMemories wrote:Well, Bill... Let's start with the fact that you currently have a 156 rating.
The burden of proof would fall on him.

Have to disagree with this. Having a higher rating doesn't automatically make someone right. Regardless of ratings, I'm not really sure how you can expect anyone to prove something didn't show up. It's not really a fair request. I do think Dweomer's post was reasonable in asking if anyone else had a similar experience with this trader.

If it were me, i would check with someone at the post office. Tell them what happened and ask if there's anything they can do. There may not be, but it never hurts to ask.

If you put a return address on the package, I would also wait another week or so to see if it gets returned to you. I had an adressing mixup that resulting in a package i sent being marked undeliverable. It got returned to the sender (i.e. me). I think it took 2 to 3 weeks from when i sent it to when i had it back. In my case it was marked undeliveable the same day they tried to deliver it, but sometimes the post office will hold a package for a while before returning it.

A related comment for people recieving packages:
If you're expecting a package and it's more than 2 or 3 days late, check with the post office about it. About a month ago i was in a trade where the package i was supposed to recieve didn't show up. It was a week after i was told the package had been sent, and it hadn't arrived. So I went to the post office, told them who i was and asked if they could check if there was a package for me. Sure enough, they had it lying around. It was correctly addressed and nobody knew why it hadn't been delivered, but i did get my stuff. If i didn't go ask, it would have been returned to the sender as being unclaimed.

BTW, If you did do DC and lost the slip, the register reciept (if you still have it) should have the number as well.

Have to disagree with this. Having a higher rating doesn't automatically make someone right.

While I agree with your point above, I think your decision is faulty.
No disrespect.
Let me explain.

You say you disagree with me that the burden of proof is on the accuser.
You, Dweomer and I all live in the USA. Here, you are considered to be innocent until proven guilty.
Now, granted, we don't have a Bartertownian Judicial System... but what we DO have is something that works.
If you are going to say someone ripped you off, you'd better be able to prove it.
Dweomer's high rating and constant presence are what I'd equate to an alibi. He has too much to lose.
Am I saying it's impossible that he ripped someone off? No. I don't know him well enough to be able to state, flat out, it didn't happen. I *do* know him well enough to say I WON'T believe it until it is proven.

What little I know about the USPS, I learned from experience. If you didn't buy D.C., they say they cannot track it. I have asked, begged, & pleaded to avail. I asked my brother (he's a postman) if there's any way to track a package without D.C. His answer was, "Not as far as I know."

Having the recipient inquire to his local post office was an excellent idea.


Dweomer... a question...

Assuming you shipped your stuff in a box, did you "wrap" the box (brown paper, etc.) or was it just a box with the address written on the outside? If you wrap your boxes (and this goes for anyone), I recommend against it, if you can avoid it. If the box gets hung up in one of their machines, it can shred the paper covering in a matter of seconds. Your box could end up lost forever.
Regardless of how you package the items, I recomment ALWAYS putting a slip of paper in the package with the "To" and "From" addresses in it (clearly labeled). If the address on the package should become unreadable for any reason, they will open the package. If you have placed the recipients address in the box, they will forward it on it's merry way.
I learned that trick from someone at the USPS.

Eric

Look at this from the perspective of a guy with a low rating. I buy an item from a someone with a higher rating. I pay with a check/paypal ect... I have proof I provided funds. He says he shipped (I am not calling anyone a liar here just pointing out what has been said in the threads) forgets to get a tracking #, but I never recieve the items. Now just because he has a higher rating, I as a low rating buyer am now supposed to say "Well he would never chance his reputation so I guess I'll just write off the amount of money I paid and chalk this up to experience."?

It was stated a high rating and constant presence is an alibi. While true; a paypal reciept or canceled chech is proof.

What would do if you traded with someone with an even higher rating and the same thing happened? IMO the package was probably lost but the question is since DC was not provided, who should be the one that looses out on the deal? The individual with a low rating that paid money and can provide proof of such or the guy with a higher rating that states he doesn't remember if he got DC or not.

First of all i'm not suggesting Dweomer is pulling any sort of scam. I believe him for the same reasons MagickalMemories does. (For that matter, i don't currently have any reason to think the other guy's pulling a scam either. It's entirely possible that they are both being completely honest.)

MagickalMemories:

You state now that the burden is on the accuser. But my reading of your original post was that the burden was assigned to the other guy because of Dweomer's higher rating. That's what i disagreed with. The situation is that one person sent something (and presumably would have some way to show that at least something was sent) and the other claims it never showed up (which is essentially unprovable). Your position, as i understood it, was that the latter should be forced to prove it didn't show up while the former should be taken at his word (and essentially exempted from having to present any evidence he might have). It's the second part that doesn't make sense to me, regardless of who the people are.

Let me ask you this: If instead this were an issue between two completely new traders with no reputation here, would you expect the sender in that case to show evidence that the package was sent? If so, then in the current instance you are using Dweomer's rating as a substitute for evidence. I don't think that's an appropriate use of the reference system. I think that everyone should be held to the same standard in cases like this, and should show whatever evidence they might have, even if everyone believes them anyway.

In this case, it seems Dweomer may no longer have whatever evidence he had. So yeah, in the absence of any other evidence, his rating and the fact that he's been around a while (i remember his farseer/warlock from the conversion contest) strongly suggests he's telling the truth. So sure, i believe him, but i know that belief and proof are not the same thing. Which is why if Dweomer should happen to find the postal reciept or whatever, i think it would be appropriate to post it. His trading partner deserves to see any proof that is available instead of hearing a lot of talk about who has a hgher rating.



Now as to the accuser proving it didn't show up, that begs the question of whether there is any obligation on the sender's part for lost packages. I think it's an important topic that i don't recall being addressed, so i made a new thread about it:
viewtopic.php?t=19096

Well, Ves... Well said.
Let me see if I can make sense of my thought processes to you.
Before I do, though, let me also say that I find NOTHING to disagree with you about in your last post (yet... but who knows? LOL).

Actually, I'll start with Ollie, because he was first...

Ollie, I don't know that I COULD ever find myself in this particular situation. The reason being that I always insist on delivery confirmation. If we agree to it (and a deal with me is NOT finalized until you specifically agree to it), and you do not provide a D.C., then you are at fault if the package should go undelivered, as you did not kep up your end of the bargain.

who should be the one that looses out on the deal? The individual with a low rating that paid money and can provide proof of such or the guy with a higher rating that states he doesn't remember if he got DC or not.

That's a good question. I can't answer it. IMO, it depends on whether or not the D.C. was part of the agreement. If Dweomer were to come out & say that he remembered agreeing to it (or he finds an email that shows he did), then my position would switch to place the burden (not of proof, as I'd still believe him) of replacement/refund on him. It would be his duty to make it right.
It is important to cover your own butt here, IMO. If the buyer didn't insist on, or even request D.C., then he needs to learn from this experience (I am NOT saying, "Boo Hoo! Get over it!").

Now, Ves...
Wow... That's a lot to cover.

my reading of your original post was that the burden was assigned to the other guy because of Dweomer's higher rating.

All other things being equal, yes. If neither can prove anything, then I fall to reputation. The other guy hasn't chimed in with anything to refute D's claim. Until he does (convincingly... i.e. with proof), I will continue my beliefs.

Your position, as i understood it, was that the latter should be forced to prove it didn't show up while the former should be taken at his word

Only as it relates to my above statement.


Quoted and snipped--

..If instead this were an issue between two completely new traders ...would you expect the sender...to show evidence that the package was sent? If so, ...you are using Dweomer's rating as a substitute for evidence. I don't think that's an appropriate use of the reference system. ...everyone should be held to the same standard ... and should show whatever evidence they might have...

It's hard to answer this as the ideas are kinda separate to me (one being the "2 new traders" and two being the established trader). I find the two are easily made exclusive of ewach other.
Additionally, I couldn't comment effectively, I think, on this situation without a specific situation to comment on.
That being said, I will try, on both accounts.

If it was between 2 new traders, I would base it solely on the "evidence" and the agreement made. If the agreement included D.C., and the shipper didn't get it, I am on the receivers side on the issue. If it was NOT agreed upon... then, it would most likely be a wash, in my eyes.
I am QUICK to light in on a scammer (See Gester), and I will swiftly point out anyone who has raised my concern (ask Lin... he gets emails from me LOL). That being said, if I can find nothing fishy or suspicious in a persons interaction, I cannot bring it into myself to assume them guilty. I would be non-commital.
I hope that sheds some light.

I agree that D's lack of evidence would be suspicious in a less established trader. No alterations. I agree. Also note that, like you, I said I believe him. I did NOT say that he had proven that he shipped it. Again, I believe that still needs to be shown.
Also, I think you are correct in that, if he should find any evidence that he DID ship it, It would be right to email it to the guy he traded with. I don't know that I'd say for him to post it, as he has nothing he needs to prove to us. This whole thread was started by him after all. LOL
Then again, it wouldn't hurt, either.

I hope I've answered some questions for you.

I'm interested to see where you go in your thread. I'll have to visit it.

Eric
P.S. I almost forgot. Dweomer... from now on, spring for the $.55 for D.C. Make a habit of it. LOL