I've said it before....

[fitterpete]

and I'll say it again.BTRs and Backouts should have to be ok'ed by a admin before they are posted.I would even say that neg refs should be ok'ed too.
I'm not saying the admins should be able to refuse someone but a little help thru PMs with the accused might get the problem resolved before a BTR or BO post is needed.
Too many BTRs and BOs(and especially neg refs) have been posted before the accused have had a chance to rectify the problem.
A neg ref might not be "the end of the world" but A LOT of us take our trade records VERY seriously.
Pete

[aurak_merc]

I hear ya Pete. I have had a couple of deals go a bit sour on here, but after talking it out with those involved a mutually beneficial agreement was made and all was well. I think that some folks just have the idea in their heads that everyone is out to screw them over in a deal, so they have to strike fast and as hard as they can before the other person does. It can make a person hesitant to trade with newer people since they are often, but not always, the most "jumpy".

Something to keep in mind though, is that the powers-that-be tend to be really attentive to this sort of thing, so anything done improperly gets dealt with accordingly. It is still a pain for the recipient, but it is pretty effective.

[starslayer]

I dont know if you should need approval for a BTR or BO. You dont need it to post a negative reference. Then you could just skip the thread entirely & give a negative immediately. You should defintely contact the other person & give them a chance to fix it BEFORE you do anything though.

[fitterpete]

Well then maybe you should need a ok to post a neg ref then.The point is ,yeah they SHOULD contact the person first, but they don't.If they couldn't post till they talked to staff then they would HAVE to contact the person first or at least try.I would trust ANY of our staff to determine if enough time/effort was put into trying to contact the accused.
At least it wouldn't be some newbie/hothead/can't RTFR guy/ just going off and dinging somebody before they had a chance to make it right.

[kturock]

I always contact the other trader when things occur.
But...
He knew he misrepresented the item.
He knew it was missing parts.
He knew it was packed poorly and would be broken in handling.

So, you're saying, now, I gotta beg the putz to correct his mistake, then, after he, being the putz that he is, delines to do anything; or even worse, refuses to acknowlegdge the problem, by not answering or even reading the pm's, I have to bother an unpaid, over-worked, admin, mod or watchman, to reveiw the entire case, after I've submitted pictures, showing the broken items or poorly painted items. Rediculous!

I bought several vehicles from a trader here. He put all of them in a box with no padding 'to have less space for them to move around in and besides, for the price you paid, condition shouldn't matter.

He's now on my personal DNT list.

Yes contact the other trader. He he doesn't offer or ask if theres a way to rectify the problem, BTR. The criteria of it say, someone one you would naver trade with again.
He screwed you once, so obviously you won't trade with him again.

[fitterpete]

OK you guys are totally missing the point.So nevermind.We would obviuosly rather have good traders reps wrecked than inconvience anyone.
Well let me try again.
Some(a good few) of the BTRS and bad refs are left by people WHO DON'T TRY TO CONTACT ANYONE before they post a BTR/Backout/bad ref.
What would you do K of you came to Btown one morning to see some newbie had given you a bad ref and left a BTR because your package had been wrecked in transit or been delayed afew days? By the letter of the rules they are within their rights to do this.So even if you make it right they don't have to rescind the neg or have the admin delete the BTR.But if they had talked to a staff member and been told to wait for contact a few days it could have been avoided.
Pete
PS I have no idea what or who your refering to with your first three points.

[starslayer]

OK you guys are totally missing the point.So nevermind.


I got the point. What do the Mods say? I dont think they are gonna change things.


We would obviuosly rather have good traders reps wrecked than inconvience anyone.


Ok, now you are getting a bit silly.


And its not just newbies. Long time traders can be unreasonable D- bags too. I almost got screwed over by someone with a 400+ rating simply for asking for my items that NEVER arrived & I received no tracking # for. Even though I sent exactly what was agreed on. Luckily the Mods corrected it.

I have no idea who Kturock is talking about.

[kturock]

I wasn't refering to 1 specific person, but to the 3 main reasons most people file complaints. [other than out right theft.]

Something is/are missing.
Something is misrepresented, new vs oop, metal vs plastic, stripped vs unpainted, never painted.
Broken due to little or no packing; or in a thin, light box.

There is no way a trader/seller can seal a box and not know what he put in it or didn't put in it.
There is limited chance that the person didn't know it isn't new, it is/isn't metal/plastic, it was stripped.
That there is no packing in the box, or that the 3 pieces of tiolet paper, paper towel or facial tissue wouldn't protect 30+ minis.

I've seen all of these complaints in the various BTRs filed here, from both new and old traders.

[carmachu]

I dont know if you should need approval for a BTR or BO. You dont need it to post a negative reference. Then you could just skip the thread entirely & give a negative immediately. You should defintely contact the other person & give them a chance to fix it BEFORE you do anything though.

I have to disagree with most of the posters on this thread. I like the system the way it is, despite my current issue with a trader(or rather my current issue to fix a screw up on my part). Yes she filed a BTR and bad trade thread without contacting me first. Yes its rather annoying and ruins my spotless record.

But you have recourse through the mods, who are more then willing to work with you on issues. I'm much rather have things be freely done then go through hoops to do. Even if its annoying, even if its an inconvience to me or my trade rep, folks should be free to file.

[starslayer]

Im thinking the system works out well. The Mods here are right on the ball to fix any problems too.

[EVIL INC]

I have to agree. I have had issues with things coming to me "not right or not at all" and I made sure to contact the other party (or attempt to) before posting anything. I have also had an issue with a revenge reference when someone got miffed at a nuetral one I sent when they had totally misrepresented what they were supposed to send me and sent me half empty sprues. I spoke with the mods at that time and they had no problems with checking the situation and removing the revenge reference.
Seems good as it is and the mods/admins are spot on with keeping up with things and being fair.

[fitterpete]

Well ok then.I was expecting a lot of support but if no one else thinks it's a good idea then I have to go along with that.I still don't agree but oh well.
Any mods feel free to lock this.
Pete

[Linrandir]

Why should we lock it? Obviously it's an issue that a number of people feel strongly about and should be discussed. Shoot, even revisited occasionally to see if the policy is working.

I've tried to avoid saddling everyone with an overabundance of hyper-explicit rules. We're all wargamers, so I understand why that makes a lot of people anxious at first (or even fifth) glance. There are a lot of people who prefer having everything laid out in explicit and ironclad detail - in some regards, it's comforting. In other regards, it helps you know what you can do to game the system.

Having rules that are policed by a crew who understand their spirit/intent makes people uneasy because there's no way to know for certain beforehand how a particular situation is going to be received. If we think that someone's being a jerk, jumping the gun, or what-have-you, we will discuss it on our private forum(s) and then decide on the most appropriate course of action. All in all though, it seems to work pretty well.

[MagickalMemories]

Well, Lin beat me to the punch here (Yes. Sometimes, I take a day or two off from the forums :gasp: LOL). It's like he said, though, there is nothing that anyone can do that cannot be undone. Period.
Some jerkwad spams you with 10 "ITL intimidation" negatives in revenge for giving him a deserved one?

*click* Ban User
*click* delete reference
repeat as needed
*click* email user that he's been banned. Send him to Lin if he wants to argue it.

Pete, don't stress it. There are PLENTY of people out there who DO agree with you. Trust me. We hear from them. : )


Eric

[Adunaphel]

I couldn't agree with Pete more. I have had several occasions where I could've gone off and left a negative for a trader before contacting them. And certainly I have made my fair share of mistakes (including sending the wrong items to different traders and even sending an empty box one time).

I am thankful that my fellow traders contacted me about the problems so that I could fix it. Some of these ended up giving me a positive reference and one decided he didn't want to give me any reference. Which was just fine.

I think if this thread reminds even a few traders to communicate with their trade partners before leaving a negative reference or putting up a BTR or backout, then it is a success. Even if that doesn't work, then at least the offended party TRIED to fix the problem before escalating.

kturock, you are right that if a trader won't fix a problem then they deserve what they get. But, ALL traders should TRY to work out problems before taking serious actions here.

I don't think there needs to be a change of rules for leaving negatives, BTR's, or that backout thing, but sending out the word that communication after a problem couldn't be a bad thing.

Karl