Bartertown.com

ADMIN Edit - This post was split off from another post alerting Bartertowners to a class action suit being taken/considered against Black Tree Design - a miniatures company based in the UK, with an office in the USA
Original thread here - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=104512


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I've heard about problems other people had, and it stopped me from doing more than one order with them. The miniatures are great, but unless I could buy them from a store, I wouldn't take the risk.

It's unfortunate, but it sounds like they just don't have a good mailorder set-up, and a year wait is a bit ridiculous. Although most people I've heard who had orders pending for a long time do say that they "eventually" get their stuff, with other things to make up for it.

I had placed an order with them last year, and after a month, called them. I spoke to the man in Texas, and there was a backorder issue with my stuff. He canceled the 1 item, refunded it, and shipped the rest of my order.

While it did take a bit longer than expected, I would still order from them again.

Mike

It is usually best to do as others have done and just contact the company and address the issue you have in particular with them. It is likely a matter of not having the mail-order department set up to snuff just yet. Many companies have had similer isues in their "younger years" and moved on to become the movers and shakers of the gaming industry. Big enough in fact that they can publish gaming magazines dedicated solely to their own products.
Rather then assume they are "out to get you" and call in the law and try to put them out of business, try just contacting them. Likely, if you do, they will make it right for you or refund your money.

Black Tree Design( formerly Icon, Formerly Harlequin miniatures) has been around since the early 90's. They are no longer in their younger years and their problems have now been going on for most of this decade.

They don't necessarily respond when you call, e-mail or write them hence the direction he's going with this. Read through the links and look around on various forums and you will see that they've had issues for quite some time. So while they might not be out to get you they are not exactly out to do the right thing either.

Shame too as they have some nice models.

Valhallansurfer good luck hope it all works out for you.

EVIL INC wrote:It is usually best to do as others have done and just contact the company and address the issue you have in particular with them. It is likely a matter of not having the mail-order department set up to snuff just yet. Many companies have had similer isues in their "younger years" and moved on to become the movers and shakers of the gaming industry. Big enough in fact that they can publish gaming magazines dedicated solely to their own products.
Rather then assume they are "out to get you" and call in the law and try to put them out of business, try just contacting them. Likely, if you do, they will make it right for you or refund your money.

New Wave Games had these issues you mention.
So did The Drop Zone.

Look how THOSE ended up.

Eric

True. of course Games Workshop did as well and they turned out fine. I was just saying that contacting them and trying to work out the issue is better then starting off a half cocked witch hunt when it could be (and most likely is) a matter of logistics rather then the company trying to purposely rip people off.
Did the people who claim to have been ripped provide documentation as to their attempts to contact the company? Not in the links they provided anyway. Did they make a single call and talk to a flunky or did they actually speak to a "ranking official" who actually has the power to make it right? These things can make a difference. After all, there are even a lot of people who will see that one person has had an issue and spread the word to suddenly have multiple orders "magically" appear. Not to say that is happening in this case of course.
Regardless, This is an attempt to actually close down the company. Not to get their money back or the orders or whatnot, but to actually run the company out of business. They come right out and say so in the links provided. No one can deny that more options are better when it comes to models. I feel that going on a crusade to "make it right" would be far preferable to the current crusade to "shut them down altogether". In other words, justice is better then revenge. Of course, that is just my opinion.

EVIL INC wrote:True. of course Games Workshop did as well and they turned out fine. I was just saying that contacting them and trying to work out the issue is better then starting off a half cocked witch hunt when it could be (and most likely is) a matter of logistics rather then the company trying to purposely rip people off.

I think what you are missing is that these people have tried numerous times to contact the company and fail to get a response or if the do get a response it of a brush off nature. Now it's true not everyone who's ordered from them has been ripped off. But the percentage of people who order from them and do not receive product or all product or a refund for an unfilled order is rather high. I will give you that the Texas branch does have at time difficulty receiving their order from the parent company in the UK it still does not excuse the fact that people wait 6+ months for an order with no communications from BTD. Are you willing to wait that long?

As far as starting off a half cocked witch hunt, well I think it's a fully cocked legitimate issue hunt. If you're company is having that many logistical problems it's time to shut down until you work them out.

Edited post to be more concise.

EVIL INC wrote:True. of course Games Workshop did as well and they turned out fine.

Really? You might want to check my rant from some monthes back.

I've had problems with GW products for years; either from them or their retailers.

My most recent was a sealed box of the "Talisman" board game, with pieces missing. GW refused to replace them.

The good thing about Games Workshop is that they are always more then happy to make up for any mistakes made in thier orders or packages. If you go to just about any online forum (take portent for example), you will see loads of threads and posts where someone had a mistake in their order and it only took a single call to get it fixed. Usually, with a whole new box or package sent to you without you having to send the "bad" item back so that they person ended up with multiples of an item for the price of one. Many people take advantage of their great customer service and lie to them about "bad orders" in order to get freebies.
I would never do such a thing as lie to them but I CAN vouch for their great customer service from personal experience. Once, I sent in an order that had 2 packages of dark elf warriors (I dont play the dark pansies but my buddy and I went together on the order) and only one package of them was sent. We only had to call and let them know. Not only did they immediately send out the missing box, they added in an extra metal dark elf model as an apology. Another time, I bought an old fleshhound at a local B&R. it had 2 right sides of the body in the blister instead of a left and right. I called and tried to explain which left side I needed. The guy on the phone did not understand what I meant. You know what they did? They sent me one of each left side just to make sure I got the correct one.
If you had issues with them in that regard, you are the only person I have ever heard of who has (in the last 20 years at least). Maybe if you made a follow up call or two to jog them a bit (heck, maybe if the people trying to put Black Tree out of business were to make a follow up call or two. That is if they are not from a rival company trying to tarnish their competition. Not to say thats the case of course. Just that it is a definite possibility). They have also stayed in business and have done very well for themselves as a company.

Read my rant I posted a couple monthes ago. I called them, they said tough sh&^.
I bought from a local store and when I opened the box, pieces were missing. The store uses Alliance as their distributor. I called GW, they said bring back to the store. The store called Alliance, who said they won't take it back because GW won't give them replacements. GW won't stand behind damaged, defective or missing products that anyone other than them or they select retailers. The store now orders directly from GW, but since GW no longer makes the item, I'm still SoL.

I've never had any positive results from any dealing I've had buying from GW, since they started selling in the US, back in the 80's. Mis-molded minis. Pieces missing, pieces damaged. And ZERO customer service from the. NONE.

This is taking this topic way off-topic.

You can feel shiney and happy about them all you want; but I still hate the comapny. Love the products, but not them. It's the company I most hope goes out of business and be bought out by someone else.

I'm sorry to hear that you have had bad dealings with them. From what I have seen, your the only one I have ever heard of who has. Of course, I suppose that they may not have good people working for them in all countries or have the logistics they may need in all countries. Luckily, I'm in the U.S. where their customer service is some of the best when it comes to dealing with that sort of issue. FAR FAR better then any other gaming company. Your right though, this is a little off topic as we are discussing Black Tree and people trying to destroy them and run them out of business. I had only mentioned G.W. because they are s shining example of how a gaming company can have a rough start and go on to become not only a leader in the gaming industry but also a shining beacon in terms of such things as customer service that all other companies can look forward to as a role model.

EVIL INC wrote:I'm sorry to hear that you have had bad dealings with them. From what I have seen, your the only one I have ever heard of who has. Of course, I suppose that they may not have good people working for them in all countries or have the logistics they may need in all countries. Luckily, I'm in the U.S. where their customer service is some of the best when it comes to dealing with that sort of issue. FAR FAR better then any other gaming company. Your right though, this is a little off topic as we are discussing Black Tree and people trying to destroy them and run them out of business. I had only mentioned G.W. because they are s shining example of how a gaming company can have a rough start and go on to become not only a leader in the gaming industry but also a shining beacon in terms of such things as customer service that all other companies can look forward to as a role model.

I've been dealing with GW since 85', Most times dealing with their Customer Service is good but not always and I'm in the US.

People who have dealt with BTD and are out $$ have every right to do what they have to do to recover their money. I've dealt with BTD and it's former incarnations from 95' -05' when the problems became bigger then the occasional glitch for me. Sorry you feel people are trying to destroy BTD but BTD brought this upon themselves.

@ Evil Inc
Will you please quit saying that these guys are trying to run Black Tree out of business! Did you even read the links? This has been going on for years now.There are A LOT of people out money because Black Tree will not answer phone calls or emails.They charge their cards then don't deliver the goods or at best keep them waiting for months.
Those are not the only two threads on TMP about Black Tree, if you do a search on TMP there are threads about them for the last couple years.You can also go to The Lead Adventure forum,the WAB forum and the yahoo WAB list and see more.
I used to order from Black Tree all the time till a friend of mine had to wait a year to get his order filled.If it wasn't for all the complaints a lot more people would have fallen victim to them.They are just trying to get their money back and give Black Tree a wakeup call.
Pete

Just a few quotes from the links they provided (to show I did my homework)...
"-Informing other gamers and collectors. Word of mouth is pretty powerful. I am sure if everyone involved actively informed
"I don't think those of us who have been stung by their shoddy business practices should take this lying down."
"If you know who hosts their website it may be worth contacting them with a view to having the BTD site removed for fraudulent practice, if they knowingly allow BTD to continue taking customers money without providing the goods then they may well be liable in addition to BTD."
"BTD USA seems to definitely need to be closed down"
"But with BTD I have to say what they are doing is outright fraud."
Rather harsh words. Some are outright advocacy to put the company out of business, others are actual plans and ways to do it encouraging others to do the same and yet others are accusations to discredit them in order to try to stop others from doing business with them.

Also, reading through the links, I see others who have had great dealings with the company making the lie that the company is out to steal everyone's money and never ever provide the goods. To me, it appears that the company needs to work on their logistics. For example, I know of many places in my hometown that are set up for "factories" that vary in size and with a large workforce and few jobs, black tree could set up a small casting site. All they would need to do is bring in the materials and specialized machinery and pop it into the pre-set up site and hire the abundant workforce (line workers, office staff and even truckers to transport). Heck, the one site, they could set up the entire company, offices, customer service and all. Anyways, like I was saying, it appears to be a matter of getting things straight rather then the outright fraud they are being accused of. I still feel that justice is better then the revenge that is being attempted.