Bartertown.com

Having recently had a bad experience myself, I have been reading some of the posts on the BTR. I have to say I find some peoples attitudes and comments about people reporting bad traders to be frustrating and digusting. I admit I haven't been using this sight for very long but I thought the whole point of the BTR list was to

a. Warn other members that there are fraudulent trades and deals going on.
b. Pool information so the matter can be pursued further or at the very least prevent another member from being dooped.

Rants about nervous "noob" members jonesing for their "toys" and jumping the gun don't really seem to achieve either of the above. If you don't care about your "toys" enough to report when they are stolen, then send them to me. I'll happily put them to good use. What I find most puzzling is why anyone who doesn't have any usefull information to add or help the person who has been robbed would even find it necessary to make a comment. If you don't have a dog in the fight and you can't help out either party why not just keep your comments to yourself? It really isn't any of your business. What is the point in harrassing someone who has held up there end of a bargain only to be left out in the cold by another trader? If someone obviously hasn't read the forum rules and post information incorrectly the mods should handle it. That is their job.

I see tons of responses giving excuses why someone hasn't responded to multiple attempts to contact them. Everything from vacations, its the holidays and sick relatives to bad weather in their area. Really? Well why not add, they died, they converted to the amish faith and no longer use the evil that is the internet, or they were abducted by little green men. How about if you don't know them personally then don't make excuses for them. Speculation is just that.


And someone tell me what difference does it make if a string of PM's or emails are posted in chronological order or reverse chronological order they are both very readable and supply a burden of proof. My response to people crying about something so petty is to suggest they and the rest of the OCD crowd stop ringing their hands and rocking back and forth and take a pill. I mean seriously get a life.

Heavygear,

You make a number of excellent points that I take no issue with. However, having been one of the people that mentioned chonological post order to you, I will respond to this issue. I make no claim to speak on behalf of the rest of the staff.

Heavygear wrote: And someone tell me what difference does it make if a string of PM's or emails are posted in chronological order or reverse chronological order they are both very readable and supply a burden of proof. My response to people crying about something so petty is to suggest they and the rest of the OCD crowd stop ringing their hands and rocking back and forth and take a pill. I mean seriously get a life.

1. The Staff are volunteers. I help out to keep the site rolling and because of a personal commitment to the community. The majority of the "patrolling" is fun, but some stuff, including BTRs, is work, work that I take seriously and want to conduct professionally and efficiently (this goal is not always achieved ).

2. Given (1), reading a thread history that starts at the beginning and ends at the end makes for smoother and clearer analysis. Good message divisions, appropriate date and sender/recipient information also contribute to a better experience for the staff member in question. While for the poster, this is hopefully their only BTR, I generally read all the BTRs in an effort to promote smooth operation of the board and maintain familiarity with the issues. Consequently, in the interests of facilitating my response/awareness of BTRs, having them in chronological order is extremely helpful.

You can compare this to the legal system if you like--the process requires that certain documentation be filed in a certain fashion. Now, on BT, there is no requirement for this to be done--the legalism here is minimal. But it demonstrates a desire to cooperate with the staff in obtaining a common goal when complainants post in chronological order. You are not REQUIRED to do so; the staff APPRECIATES it when you do.

3. Attacking the people who are endeavoring to assist you and suggesting that they should stop being OCD and get over themselves may be appropriate, especially if you are feeling nit-picked. On the other hand, you may pause to consider whether there is a reason behind such a preference that extends beyond your individual circumstance.

I'm going to weigh in here as a an unofficial, non-sanctioned Btowner who reads practically every single BTR and backout report that gets posted.

post order - the reason a lot of BTRs go in reverse chronological order, undivided is because that's the way the message history works, and people block cut and paste. If Btown presented message history as a chronological & {quote} divided summary view, this wouldn't occur at all. While some will reprocess the BTR into nice quotes, it's a royal PITA that only the most detail-oriented / meticulous traders will do. For a one-off, it's not really worth the extra effort.

As a systemic issue, the blame here really needs to be laid at Adam's feet - make a thing that spits out a BTR summary, and *everybody* will have much cleaner BTRs going forward. Adam has the ability to do this once, and then the benefit is realized for each BTR that is created and read thereafter.

That said, I agree with the OP that post order is petty and trivial, compared to completeness and the actual loss of stuff

attitudes - I also take strong exception to people claiming that BTRs are posted prematurely. If someone reaches the point that they feel they need to post a BTR (and practically without exception, this typically occurs after a week of no-contact, or two-weeks after delivery), then get the hell off the poster's back. It's his stuff that he's out, not yours. If you're not actually going to help him, then shut the hell up and move on.

The only thing that I see that's premature are Negs going down within days of posting a BTR, or simul with posting a BTR. That's completely stupid. If you're wanting your stuff, posting a Neg without giving staff and trade partner to respond or make good means you're done with the trade and giving up on receiving stuff.

What I find most puzzling is why anyone who doesn't have any usefull information to add or help the person who has been robbed would even find it necessary to make a comment. If you don't have a dog in the fight and you can't help out either party why not just keep your comments to yourself? It really isn't any of your business. What is the point in harrassing someone who has held up there end of a bargain only to be left out in the cold by another trader? If someone obviously hasn't read the forum rules and post information incorrectly the mods should handle it. That is their job.

You are absolutely correct here.
Rest assured that is is being handled. We are currently writing and revising a new rule to implement to address this specific issue.

And someone tell me what difference does it make if a string of PM's or emails are posted in chronological order or reverse chronological order they are both very readable and supply a burden of proof. My response to people crying about something so petty is to suggest they and the rest of the OCD crowd stop ringing their hands and rocking back and forth and take a pill. I mean seriously get a life.

I'm not OCD.
:knock:
:hair pull:

I'm not OCD.
:knock:
:hair pull:

I'm not OCD.
:knock:
:hair pull:

: )

Truth is, sorrow answered this quite well.
Since my sig line specifically address that issue, I think it's important that i give you my own answer.
Some will echo what you've already heard.

First: I do this in my spare time. Whether it's between jobs at work, or while my computer processes current jobs (as now), my lunch break or at home in my spare time, I spend a lot of my free time on this site. I'm here for 3 main reasons. In no particular order, they are: (1) I like the social atmosphere of online forums (2) I love this site (3) I want to help make this site, and online trading in general, a safer and more enjoyable experience for everyone.
I don't do it for kudos or accolades. It's not an ego trip. I do not receive a paycheck.

My job on the site does not require me to assist you (collectively) with BTR's. There is no written requirement for that. Technically, the BTR forum is there for those who feel the need to post something to warn the community of someone who... Well... Who needs to be there. it has developed into a forum where staff and members call rally together to assist each other with these problems. I do like that.
I've always spent a lot of time working on BTR's. This goes back to my days before being a staff member, even. I've alwys enjoyed (and been good at) digging up dirt on people and helping catch people in lies & misdeeds. That forum is a perfect place for me.

Before making your decision on whether chronological order is important, you should go back through the last... say... 4 or 5 months worth of BTR's. As you read post after post after post, you'll notice a few things.
1) Chronological posts are simply easier to read. They flow naturally and are more easily decipherable.
2) Some people [ quote] the other trader's PMs in their replies. In RCO (reverse chronological order), this can be quite confusing since the quoted post doesn't look that much different than an actual post if they quote the header, too. if it's just quoted text, it sometimes looks like part of that PM and not a quoted part of the previous one.
3) More than once, we've seen BTR reports where the proof wasn't in ANY order, CO (chronological order) or RCO! Many will paste the same PM numerous times throughout the thread.
4) Sometimes, getting people to post proof is like pulling teeth.
5)?Yes .annoying quite be can you to natural not is that order an in things Reading
6) ?seY . gniyonna etiuq eb nac uoy ot larutan ton si taht redro na ni sgniht gnidaeR
Combine those, and you should see the reasoning behind it (for me, anyway).

If people want help, they should make it as easy as possible for those who they want help from. If you're drowning & a life guard swims out to your rescue... don't push him under water.

Eric

JohnHwangBT wrote: post order - the reason a lot of BTRs go in reverse chronological order, undivided is because that's the way the message history works, and people block cut and paste. If Btown presented message history as a chronological & {quote} divided summary view, this wouldn't occur at all. While some will reprocess the BTR into nice quotes, it's a royal PITA that only the most detail-oriented / meticulous traders will do. For a one-off, it's not really worth the extra effort.

[...]

That said, I agree with the OP that post order is petty and trivial, compared to completeness and the actual loss of stuff

I understand the logistics of why BTRs turn up in non-chrono order; those systemic limitations are clearly part of the consideration to NOT require BTRs to be posted in chrono order.

That said, many (most?) BTR posters DO post in chrono order when requested. As the party most familiar with the message thread, and with access to it in their inbox, they are ideally situated to perform such editing. (I'm not looking for the niceties of quotation marks and fancy formatting; the posts simply must not run together.)

As for it being worth the effort--if it is worth posting a BTR, IMO, it's worth making it as clear as possible and as easy as possible for the staff to manage.

Post order is not important to the CONTENT of the BTR; it is important to the PROCESS. So in that sense, i don't think it's trivial at all.

JohnHwangBT wrote: post order - the reason a lot of BTRs go in reverse chronological order, undivided is because that's the way the message history works, and people block cut and paste. If Btown presented message history as a chronological & {quote} divided summary view, this wouldn't occur at all. While some will reprocess the BTR into nice quotes, it's a royal PITA that only the most detail-oriented / meticulous traders will do. For a one-off, it's not really worth the extra effort.

As a systemic issue, the blame here really needs to be laid at Adam's feet - make a thing that spits out a BTR summary, and *everybody* will have much cleaner BTRs going forward. Adam has the ability to do this once, and then the benefit is realized for each BTR that is created and read thereafter.

Well, John, since no such MODs exist for phpbb, you should write them up & send them to me.

Adam doesn't have the time to write code and create MODs for phpbb. Aside form the MOD he created to integrate the ITL into phpbb, the only MODs that we use are the ones available on phpbb.com. Find or create one that does what you suggest, and I'll personally push Adam to implement it.

The RCO function of the PM inbox is done for user ease. If you are in mid conversation or mid trade, it's easier for you to look at the most recent post to refresh your memory, rather han have to page down to the bottom of the list.

Keep in mind that, if we DO implement a MOD to reverse the order that the PM history shows, people will complain about that, too.

JohnHwangBT wrote:attitudes - I also take strong exception to people claiming that BTRs are posted prematurely. If someone reaches the point that they feel they need to post a BTR (and practically without exception, this typically occurs after a week of no-contact, or two-weeks after delivery), then get the hell off the poster's back. It's his stuff that he's out, not yours. If you're not actually going to help him, then shut the hell up and move on.

The only thing that I see that's premature are Negs going down within days of posting a BTR, or simul with posting a BTR. That's completely stupid. If you're wanting your stuff, posting a Neg without giving staff and trade partner to respond or make good means you're done with the trade and giving up on receiving stuff.

I agree with you on this.*

*Every now and again, one that really is too soon gets posted. We had one that was posted, like 2 days after the guy sent his stuff out, because he hadn't heard from the other guy. The other guy was supposed to send 2nd, after the box arrived, so was not in any need of hurrying. BTW, this was also an international deal, so shipping time was even longer (Please, do not make this about international trades ).

Eric

I went on and on about the same thing that sorrow and MM have addressed. But, after reading MM's post I decided to dump that post.

I don't read BTR's that are chaotic. I don't have the time. I pity the volunteer site worker that has to.

And who is to say what comments help or not.

Case in point. I have had ONE BTR on the site. I sent a LOW rated (under 10) trader money first for some items. In my BTR I got some comments that were VERY helpful (including the guy's phone number so I could call him personally) and some that at the time I didn't like. Like: "Why did you send money first to a new trader?"

At the time I thought those comments were useless and non-helpful to say the least. But, it did help me understand that my way of going about my trading business here was flawed. I took another look and changed how I traded and bought/sold here.

If a member thinks another member has posted the BTR too soon, then I think they have the right to help out the poster in telling them. Same with any other comments.

I think it shows that we are a community. Granted, it's sometimes disfunctional. But we do want to help even if the help we are giving is NOT what the BTR poster wants to hear. Even cold-hearted sniping in a BTR can help somebody make a change for the better (sometimes it's even the best way).

Karl

Just so everyone knows... I am a little embarrassed and I have apologized to Holyterror. I was having a bad day and when my kindly meant remarks were thrown in my face, i kinda flipped my lid,

This is an issue that I have had personal experience being on the other side of, and it has alot of feeling behind it.

We each have our own ideas on how BTRs should be posted. I am of the mind set that only VERY serious things should be posted...but truly that is just my opinion.

I went thru the BTR in question ,a few people commented they thought it was premature and a few said they didn't think it was at all.The only attitude came from the OP.
Last week I got a PM reprimand about something I said on a back out thread(my wrist still hurts HZ from where you smacked it with that ruler) and I was supporting the OP.At the time I thought "WTF don't they lock all the BTR threads so only people who contact a admin can post if they don't want comments on them?"
So I guess thats what I'm asking.Lock em unless they contact you and the staff finds it relevant to the topic.
Better yet make it impossible to post a BTR till a staff goes over it with the poster.
Just my HO Pete

Sounds like a reasonable proposal to me. Subject all posts in the BTR section to mod review.

I've since made up my mind to stop posting altogether in the BTR section anyway. Too many issues to even concern myself with.

s_o_r_r_o_w wrote:

JohnHwangBT wrote:post order

That said, many (most?) BTR posters DO post in chrono order when requested.

Post order is not important to the CONTENT of the BTR; it is important to the PROCESS. So in that sense, i don't think it's trivial at all.

If the posts are provided in CO or RCO, I'm pretty good with that as opposed to random. That said, it's probably worth recommending CO as part of BTR rules, and reinforcing the suggestion from an admin perspective.
____

MagickalMemories wrote:

JohnHwangBT wrote:post order

Well, John, since no such MODs exist for phpbb, you should write them up & send them to me.

Adam doesn't have the time to write code and create MODs for phpbb.

Keep in mind that, if we DO implement a MOD to reverse the order that the PM history shows, people will complain about that, too.

Based on previous history, my understanding is that Adam has NO interest whatsoever in having anybody else assist with maintaining the code underlying Btown, despite several offers of help (self included) in the past. There are a goodly number of well-experienced software developers on Btown who could be enlisted for this kind of thing, should Btown ever be open to the notion of assistance by and for the community.

If that position should change, then I would be more than willing to help with coordinating and developing board updates.

MagickalMemories wrote:

JohnHwangBT wrote:attitudes

I agree with you on this.*

*Every now and again, one that really is too soon gets posted. We had one that was posted, like 2 days after the guy sent his stuff out, because he hadn't heard from the other guy. The other guy was supposed to send 2nd, after the box arrived, so was not in any need of hurrying. BTW, this was also an international deal, so shipping time was even longer (Please, do not make this about international trades ).

I oughta quote that in my sig.

And no, I'm not going on about international trades here.

Checking out the latest BTR you guys really need to think about implementing my above plan.New trader ,rating 2, leaves a neg ref and BTR for 6 days non communication.Never even gave the guy a chance to respond really.
I don't think I'm going to trade anymore with low ref traders even if they do ship first.

fitterpete wrote:I don't think I'm going to trade anymore with low ref traders even if they do ship first.

I'm not going to tell you who to trade with, but statements like that don't help promote the community, anymore than does a new trader blasting Btown as a whole because of one higher rated trader's poor communication.

We were ALL new traders--where would we be if no one traded with us?

s_o_r_r_o_w wrote:

fitterpete wrote:I don't think I'm going to trade anymore with low ref traders even if they do ship first.

I'm not going to tell you who to trade with, but statements like that don't help promote the community, anymore than does a new trader blasting Btown as a whole because of one higher rated trader's poor communication.

We were ALL new traders--where would we be if no one traded with us?

Everyone should get a chance, and as a trader that has been here a while, and suffered some poor communication laps...it happens. Doesn't mean the person is out to screw you, it probably means that things just weren't spelled out enough in the early parts of the deal. I mean, you may not be able to know that you are gonna spend 6 weeks in the hospital and that's understandable, and as long as it doesn't happen on a monthly basis, there has to be some slack.

All of us started with 0 ratings at one time, and we all paid our dues to get where we are today. Occasionally losing communication is one thing, constantly doing it is another. So new traders, just because someone has a higher rating doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen. It does, and when it does, it's like it hits the fan. I speak, as I am sure many others feel, I like the community of Bartertown as a whole. I have worked long and hard on my reputation here. Even a relatively large deal, isn't enough for me to want to go "rogue" and throw my rep out the window. You may feel slighted when you lose communication and think your stuff is lost, but I doubt that someone would spend an insane amount of time here to get you to ship first, and then take your stuff and run. So crying foul after a few days...gather some facts before you post a BTR.

Rich

Stanislav wrote:
Everyone should get a chance, and as a trader that has been here a while, and suffered some poor communication laps...it happens. Doesn't mean the person is out to screw you, it probably means that things just weren't spelled out enough in the early parts of the deal. I mean, you may not be able to know that you are gonna spend 6 weeks in the hospital and that's understandable, and as long as it doesn't happen on a monthly basis, there has to be some slack.

All of us started with 0 ratings at one time, and we all paid our dues to get where we are today. Occasionally losing communication is one thing, constantly doing it is another. So new traders, just because someone has a higher rating doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen. It does, and when it does, it's like it hits the fan. I speak, as I am sure many others feel, I like the community of Bartertown as a whole. I have worked long and hard on my reputation here. Even a relatively large deal, isn't enough for me to want to go "rogue" and throw my rep out the window. You may feel slighted when you lose communication and think your stuff is lost, but I doubt that someone would spend an insane amount of time here to get you to ship first, and then take your stuff and run. So crying foul after a few days...gather some facts before you post a BTR.

Very well put.

I do not know how other people trade on here, but most of my trades on her are in the $200-$500 area. It is uncommon for me to trade for $50 or less. I live in Canada and the shipping cost prove to be a limiter of how good of a deal I can get on an item. So I trade in volume. Keeping my smaller trades for local face to face dealing at my FLGS.

If you take a look at my feedback. 176... Low by alot of standards on this site, Yet that probably means that I have traded over $20,000 on this site, and I plan to trade a lot more. why would I or anyone else with 100+ Feedback want to ruin their good names, by stealing $50 from some one. Their reputation is worth MUCH more.I must admit that I forget to send stuff out, I read a message and then forget to respond, or mean to respond later when I have a better answer. I don't get back to everyone that I would like to. The thing is I am not trying to scam you and if you are unhappy, I am going to do my damnedist to fix the problem I caused, and make you happy. So I can keep my reputation here. I think you will find the same with most vetran traders. So if you are worried about a trade with a member with 100+ reputation give us a bit of patience, before posting a BTR or negative rep. Make sure you hear from the person, give them a chance to fix the problem.

Take your time before you post a BTR or give Negative feedback, because it is permanent.