Paypal immediate dispute test underway!

[JohnHwangBT]

I think that you should TRY to go by the rules of the sites you use. Oh, sure, he can claim that it's within the rules that you can claim a dispute the day you buy it that it hasn't arrived yet.

I am ALL for it if eBay changes their policy so that a seller ONLY gets his funds AFTER the buyer CLAIMS that he got the goods. But, that is not how eBay is supposed to work.

John, did you buy your stuff on Amazon directly from Amazon? Or from one of the independent sellers? I wonder if that is the difference in payment?

Karl

The basic rule is to "win" auction, pay, and receive. I "won", paid, and am waiting for receipt. Claiming a dispute in PayPal requires you to actually send money. You simply can't claim Not Delivered without paying - the PayPal system won't let you do it because you won't have a transaction ID to tie it to.

eBay works the way that people make it work, similar to Btown. If the Seller had a clear set of Ts & Cs, then you would have more of a case. In many ways, you're arguing that Btown's customary practices must never be deviated from. The other thing is that neither eBay nor PayPal care a whit for the User Agreements or other guidance once things get moving - I know because somebody stole my money this way without following due process per the User Agreement.

I was looking to *sell* on Amazon, and as I understood the seller contracts, I wouldn't get paid until the tracking showed delivered / positive feedback was left. Amazon is a very tight company, and very buyer-friendly.

[JohnHwangBT]

John, you can't (okay, well, you CAN)... you shouldn't post something like this on a public forum and NOT expect people to make comments and/or inquire. That isn't reasonable.

Otherwise, my impression is that you're just snooping around for the sake of being a pain.

Might be that he is, John... but some of his questions are legitimate.

Eric

I have no problem with comments or inquiry. That's normal, and I'm good with that. You can see that in my first reply, before people started injecting emotion in their comments.

I have a lot of problems with people calling me "mean" or "untrustworthy" or "an ass" any of that crap. That stuff is totally unacceptable, and I don't take any of it lightly. I run a tight ship and take pride in solid execution and perfect feedback on every site I transact.

Some of his questions, perhaps, but mostly it's irrelevant poking for the sake of poking. Personally, I think it's a personal grudge against me not leaving Feedback mid-deal, while wanting extra time for him to leave Feedback for me. At this point, I'm glad I didn't leave any Feedback for him.

[JohnHwangBT]

John,
Since you made this claim via Paypal, I would like to point to two pieces of PayPal's rules:

1) Seller protection

So Paypal states that as long as the seller ships within 7 days Paypal will safeguard against claims for Item Not Received, therefore Paypal does have an issue with the tactic you have used, or by inference (RAI vs RAW), yes what you did is against the rules.

That's interesting stuff for the *Seller*, but you realise that these aren't "rules" for the *Buyer* by any stretch of the imagination, right?

It's like complaining about me driving 65 mph in my car when the Speed Limit for trucks is 55 mph. The speed limit for Trucks is completely irrelevant if I'm in a car. The only speed limit I need to pay attention to is the one for cars, and if it says 65 or 75, then I'm fine.

If these actually were rules for the Buyer, then PayPal would say:
- Buyers may not open Non-Delivery disputes until at least 7 days after payment.
And then they would disallow the option on their site during that time frame.

[Adunaphel]

John, you're a lawyer, aren't you?

I give up (waves white flag). Let the lawyer-speak continue. I will go on in my country-bumpkin way of doing the right thing.
I don't understand this, but if this is how you "get your kicks", then go ahead. Make someone's day.

Karl

[mrrshann618]

It really is kind of hard to judge if he is "doing things legally" if we really do not know the conditions of the actual sale.
At this point for all we know the auction said "Will not ship until money is in hand"
Then again the auction can say "Take me for a ride"

So why are you so insistant on "getting our approval" or "goading us into a frenzy"?
We cannot make any judgement on you ficticious transaction as we don't even know it exists. This could simply be a thoretical situation.

If the auction stated flatly, as many do, Shippment after payment recieved. That means payment is in hand, not in escrow, not taken back due to contestment.
If you are opening a ticket based on "not recieving the item" and the auction said allow 3-4 days for shipment then you clearly are being a jerk.
If it was after the 3-4 days then you have every right to doing it.

Why not simply clear this up and point us in the direction of the auction?

[IraShaine1972]

I have done more than my share of buying and selling on ebay and had a buyer pulled this stunt on me immedietly after winning an auction not only would I NOT dream of sending them anything I would at that point persue every option at my disposal to make sure that this sort of practice is answered for. Its probably one of the more inconsiderate displays I have seen in all my years of buying and selling on the net.

Its just sad that this sort of thing isn't making trading on the net more secure but is actually poisoning it further.

[HarlequinZero]

I was looking to *sell* on Amazon, and as I understood the seller contracts, I wouldn't get paid until the tracking showed delivered / positive feedback was left. Amazon is a very tight company, and very buyer-friendly.

Ok, I was just sitting on the sidelines for this one, but this gets me. So what you're saying John is that you were "looking" to sell on Amazon, (implying that you didn't sell, were merely "looking,") because of Amazon's rule that you wouldn't get paid until confirmation of delivery? Yet you feel that others have to live up to this standard? At best this seems hypocritical.

Also, I *do* find it fishy that you refuse to post a link to the auction is question so the rest of us can see what the terms of this auction were. Right now we only have your vague implications that the

Auction details didn't really specify a strong timeline.

What does that even mean?

If you were using the word "looking" wrong and actually did sell on Amazon under the rules that you got paid on receipt of the package then I retract the previous criticism. If not...well...let's just say I'd put you on my list of people to avoid dealing with. (However, that's irrelevant to you since your xenophobic trade policies would preclude us ever doing a deal in the first place. If I moved back to the US though, you'd be on my do not trade list.) I still think you should post the auction details.

-HZ

[Ironhide]

Yes, the auction details would be nice to see so everyone can make an INFORMED decision. I personally think your "experiment" is going to end up in failure. Can anyone say penalties?

[Stanislav]

Agreed, my first reaction is that it is just wrong, but the actual details could change things.

Without the details, this is just trolling.

[govannon]

But when you made that purchace on ebay you were agreeing to pay first.

You broke the deal.

You did not pay first because the guy does not have the money. Breaking a deal like that is bad mojo!

My Paypal balance is ZERO and my credit card has a charge on it. I paid according to the eBay requirement to use PayPal. That meets the eBay requirement.

For a deal to be broken, both sides have to agree on what the "deal" is. I may not have conformed to various people's expectations, but let's be clear that there wasn't any formal statement similar to how I structure contracts. Ergo, no deal was broken. It's the same as in the vast majority of Btown "deals" in which no timeframe is specified for when payment / minis are sent.

There is a big difference between paying (money leaving my pocket), and receiving (money arriving in someone else's pocket). An entire multi-Billion-dollar business revolves around this very concept of holding money until goods are delivered. If PayPal had a proper escrow option, that would be ideal.

If I was to buy something from you and was to send you a postal money order, would you be ok with me filing for mail fraud immediately after I mail your payment because you have not sent my item yet?

I will say it again. If you don't like the way ebay or paypal works, why do you want to use them?

You trying to beat the system just makes you sound shady. From all your posts that I have read, you seem to me to be a stand-up guy. You seem trustworthy. I think you are doing yourself a disservice by calling in to question your character with this deal.

George

[mysticarcher]

This is pretty interesting

at least from as a one off experiment, I could hardly see this being a viable way to deal. I don't really see why there's such a fuss, or at least such as there's been so far. To me the real question is about involving someone in a test without their consent, not dickering over the terms of service of various places and playing "ooh I'm telling on you"

[JohnHwangBT]

If I was to buy something from you and was to send you a postal money order, would you be ok with me filing for mail fraud immediately after I mail your payment because you have not sent my item yet?

You trying to beat the system just makes you sound shady. From all your posts that I have read, you seem to me to be a stand-up guy. You seem trustworthy. I think you are doing yourself a disservice by calling in to question your character with this deal.

George

if I were to sell something to you on Btown, we would have a well-defined contract with a timeline for payments. But, even if you did file, the DC# would show that I mailed, and they'd trace it back to your address, so I'd come out OK. The key difference being that we had a clearly-negotiated schedule of payment.

I'm trying to see if it's possible to use Paypal in a "safe" way, not "beat" any system, unless you're presuming that the system requires me to accept a high level of potential fraud exposure, and that simply won't be acceptable in a modern commercial way.

If Btown basic convention wanted you to send irrevocable cash first for all trades, would you do that? Or would you look for ways to limit your exposure (via higher rating, etc.)?

[JohnHwangBT]

I was looking to *sell* on Amazon, and as I understood the seller contracts, I wouldn't get paid until the tracking showed delivered / positive feedback was left. Amazon is a very tight company, and very buyer-friendly.

So what you're saying John is that you were "looking" to sell on Amazon, (implying that you didn't sell, were merely "looking,") because of Amazon's rule that you wouldn't get paid until confirmation of delivery? Yet you feel that others have to live up to this standard? At best this seems hypocritical.

Also, I *do* find it fishy that you refuse to post a link to the auction is question so the rest of us can see what the terms of this auction were.

-HZ

Oh, I've sold a little on Amazon, too, but the main focus here is PayPal payment. Amazon has pretty high fees (essentially the same as eBay) and tough competition (lowest *total* price rules), so it's also hard on small sellers. Also, Amazon will lock out non-commercial sellers from certain categories (i.e. Toys near Xmas).

If I had to characterize the two based on buying and selling, I'd say that eBay is amateur hour while Amazon is professional. eBay is easier to get started on, but has very high risk for both parties. Amazon is very professional, with corresponding high overhead. With the current fee structure and risk, it's not worth my time to sell on eBay at all. As a buyer, Amazon is great, far better than eBay, but you lose the garage sale thing. As a seller, I don't do enough volume to make Amazon really work for me, so I stop there. But if I did sales as a major business, I'd definitely supplement with Amazon over Ebay if I didn't DIY it.

I will be happy to post auction details after this thing plays out a bit more.

[JohnHwangBT]

Yes, the auction details would be nice to see so everyone can make an INFORMED decision.

Can anyone say penalties?

Auction details will go up in a few days.

Penalties? Given that the the seller will get the money as soon as the stuff arrives, what's going to happen? Do tell.

[Norseman]

If John posts the auction now...Some "Slack-Jaw Do-Gooder" will ruin the experiment and tell the seller of what is happening. It is obvious, as John's description of this is an experiment to see if this can be done. One of the most important variables in this experiment is whether or not the seller will actually submit to this abuse and complete the sale.

Why doesn't everybody just let this play out.