Ethics discussion for purchases never delivered

[EVIL INC]

Governan, you bring up a good point. How many people do need to have problems with them for it to be enough? I am willing to say that it is not up to me to say. Likewise, it is not up to any other one single person. That is why we have government agencies that consumers can go to if they fail through normal channels (which the people in the links provided did not adequately prove they did). It is not up to any one single person to raise an army of vigilantes to hunt down the people who work for the company.
You mention not having any issues with Games Workshop in dealing with them since 1992. I have dealt with them from the mid 80s and have found that they early on learned that customer service is a good thing to focus on. Where would many of us gamers be if a few people had run that company out of business before they learned that?
BTD may indeed run themselves out of business or be put out through lawsuits. My point is to go about it the correct way, through channels. Also, to do it honestly by addressing grievances rather then outright slander and lies.
I am actually glad that the thread has been split (Thank you for following my suggestion porkuslime). That is why I never once complained about the O.P. making the thread (although I was surprised to see that vigilantism was supported), I only disagreed with the O.P.'s intent to take the law into his own hands rather then follow legal channels.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

@EVIL INC,

Man, you really are made from sugar and spice, aren't you?

In addition to offering an apologetics for a company from which you have never bought anything, with which you have never had customer service issues, and, it seems likely, you had never even heard of before this thread, you have also taken up the gauntlet of GW defense.

Bravo! The Good Samaritan forum warrior will protect these companies from the villainous Black Knights (from the land of Unhappy Customers)!

It's lucky that Black Tree Design has you here, otherwise, the pressure tactics and redress-seeking measures of those who have been ripped off/poorly serviced/ignored by the company in question might achieve their desired result--punitive action that has an affect on Black Tree Design and causes them to, god forbid, either respond to their customer complaints or, horror of horrors, be carried to the grave by their poor and possibly exploitative business practices.

With your carefully considered business plan, your MBA background, and your years of experience troubleshooting for companies in distress, Black Tree Design clearly cannot, in good conscience, choose to do anything other than hire you on as a consultant to solve their woes. They were foolish to have gone this far without you! You have a moral duty to present yourself to them so that they may be saved from themselves.

Verily, your insight is too penetrating to be wasted in the provocation of parties actually affected by Black Tree Design's failure to deliver, your wit too sharp to be plied in mere trolling, and your faith too strong to be affected by simple reality.

Nay, as God is my witness, you must get thee hence to Cornwall, there to become champion and saviour to a failing miniatures company.

Godspeed!

[fitterpete]

We are looking into filing mass complaints with the post office, local law enforcement, and other various agencies in an attempt to get resolution for our grievances.

there you go

[EVIL INC]

Thank you for the vote of support. however, it is not needed. No one is taking up defense of the company at all.
They screwed up, simple as that. That screw up needs to be addressed simple as that. You dont need years of business experience to see that (although I do indeed have them).
However, vigilantism is not the way to go with this. Following legal channels is better. Hunting them down and shooting them in back alleys simply does not you your money back or the items purchased. Petey, you will find that new new way of addressing it that you just posted will work a lot better for you.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

Postscript:

BTD may indeed run themselves out of business or be put out through lawsuits. My point is to go about it the correct way, through channels. Also, to do it honestly by addressing grievances rather then outright slander and lies.
[...] That is why I never once complained about the O.P. making the thread (although I was surprised to see that vigilantism was supported), I only disagreed with the O.P.'s intent to take the law into his own hands rather then follow legal channels.

The OP's post does not contain "outright slander" or "lies". It is inappropriate for you to say that it does. Further, nothing in the OP's original post encourages/endorses/advocates vigilantism; in fact, every method he discussed is legal and, moreover, well within the realm of accepted consumer action. A class-action lawsuit is a logical next step, and it seems that the OP may, in fact, be preparing for such an eventuality.

[fitterpete]

Evil
That's a quote from the original post of valhallansurfer.That IS how they are handling it and why they are looking for others to help file the complaints.
I can't seem to get the qoute function to work so I copied and pasted it.

[MagickalMemories]

Governan, you bring up a good point. How many people do need to have problems with them for it to be enough? I am willing to say that it is not up to me to say. Likewise, it is not up to any other one single person. That is why we have government agencies that consumers can go to if they fail through normal channels (which the people in the links provided did not adequately prove they did). It is not up to any one single person to raise an army of vigilantes to hunt down the people who work for the company.
You mention not having any issues with Games Workshop in dealing with them since 1992. I have dealt with them from the mid 80s and have found that they early on learned that customer service is a good thing to focus on. Where would many of us gamers be if a few people had run that company out of business before they learned that?
BTD may indeed run themselves out of business or be put out through lawsuits. My point is to go about it the correct way, through channels. Also, to do it honestly by addressing grievances rather then outright slander and lies.

If you're unwilling to have or give an opinion on what is "too much," you absolutely shoot yourself in the foot when trying to convince people what's "not enough."

If you're willing to say, "What BTD is doing isn't so awful that it should be shut down," but won't give any indication of your opinion on HOW far they'd have to go for you to feel that way, you discredit yourself. Most Bartertowners who take part in these type discussions won't pay any heed to your opinions.

Just an FYI.

Eric

[EVIL INC]

Just a few quotes from the links provided.
"-Informing other gamers and collectors. Word of mouth is pretty powerful. I am sure if everyone involved actively informed
"I don't think those of us who have been stung by their shoddy business practices should take this lying down."
"If you know who hosts their website it may be worth contacting them with a view to having the BTD site removed for fraudulent practice, if they knowingly allow BTD to continue taking customers money without providing the goods then they may well be liable in addition to BTD."
"BTD USA seems to definitely need to be closed down"
"But with BTD I have to say what they are doing is outright fraud."

An outright lie is that the company has purposely defrauded all of the people who have tried to order from them. In the links provided are also customers who were happy. You may THINK that the intention of the company is to steal money but unless you can actually read their minds you need to allow for the fact that it is possible that there is more to it then some masterplan to steal everyone's money. Of course, that may be their plan but saying that it is without being sure is a bit far. Of course, as I have said throughout, the O.P. has the right to their opinion on the matter and the right to post it. I just disagree in that I am personally not willing to make that kind of snap judgment.
The quotes provided also encourage vigilantism. perhaps not of a "batman" variety, but definitely of a business variety.
_______ I just received a pm telling me that I am not permitted to address you so I will not.
I do not shoot myself in the foot at all. I am not qualified to say "what is enough" because I am only a single consumer. I am also do not speak for such agencies as the BBB or government agencies that regulate trade. Likewise, any other single person here does not either so no more has the legal right to make that decision either.
You need to learn to seperate facts from opinions...For example
Fact- No other single member here or myself has the legal right to say what is or is not enough.
Opinion- I feel that the company can be turned around.
See, there is a difference. That is why I state facts as facts and opinions as opinions. If you do not listen to my opinions, I dont care. You are perfectly free to disagree and I encourage it. If we all though alike, we would be zombie clones and the world would be VERY boring. Thats why I dont mind these discussions. Just try to remember to keep it civil and respectful. I do.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

Just a few quotes from the links provided.

Those threads aren't on Bartertown. Their content, as a whole, does not appear in the OP's post. The OP does not claim to speak for everyone contributing to those threads.

- "Informing other gamers and collectors. Word of mouth is pretty powerful. I am sure if everyone involved actively informed"
- "I don't think those of us who have been stung by their shoddy business practices should take this lying down."
- "If you know who hosts their website it may be worth contacting them with a view to having the BTD site removed for fraudulent practice, if they knowingly allow BTD to continue taking customers money without providing the goods then they may well be liable in addition to BTD."
- "BTD USA seems to definitely need to be closed down"

None of these statements are libelous or prima facie false. None of them suggests an illegal course of action.

- "But with BTD I have to say what they are doing is outright fraud."

The statement clearly indicates that it is the opinion of the speaker. In addition, if BTD IS collecting money and not providing goods, over an extended period of time, the evidentiary basis for that claim is strong. More so if the speaker himself has paid and not received.

The quotes provided also encourage vigilantism. perhaps not of a "batman" variety, but definitely of a business variety.

Evidence? Mass consumer action isn't vigilantism. Breaking into their offices, stealing a wad of cash, and sending it to the victims--that would be vigilantism.

_______ I just received a pm telling me that I am not permitted to address you so I will not.

Not worth even mentioning it then, is it?

[EVIL INC]

The links are part of the post are they not? That makes their contents part of the post.
Not all of the quotes you provided are libelous. However, those are not the only phrases that can be pulled from the post or links provided in it. Just to give a single other one, I will quote it here...
"But with BTD I have to say what they are doing is outright fraud."
That one is along with others. Note that it is stated as a fact rather then as an opinion.
Please note, that there are people who HAVE received their goods and have good things to say about the company. that is "evidentiary basis" showing that they are not out to defraud EVERYONE.
Mass consumer action is different from encouraging everyone to purposely and intentional do everything possible to close a business. that, to me at least, is an action more relevant to a corporate takeover situation then a consumer situation. A consumer situation would be better handled through legal authorities.
No it is not worth even mentioning. The whole idea is just silly but as I follow the rules, I will do as told.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

The links are part of the post are they not? That makes their contents part of the post.

They refer readers/interested parties to other ongoing discussions. They are not, strictly speaking, part of the post here.

Not all of the quotes you provided are libelous.

You provided those quotations. Further, you stated that they were slanderous and lies. In fact, NONE of those quotations are libelous.

Just to give a single other one, I will quote it here...
"But with BTD I have to say what they are doing is outright fraud."
That one is along with others. Note that it is stated as a fact rather then as an opinion.

You act as if that is a new quotation. You quoted it already. I quoted it back to you. The speaker qualifies his statement with "I have to say". And if he was ripped off, it is not libelous.

Please note, that there are people who HAVE received their goods and have good things to say about the company. that is "evidentiary basis" showing that they are not out to defraud EVERYONE.

Murderers don't have to murder EVERYONE to be murderers. One person is enough. Clearly, more than one person has been on the receiving end of BTD's poor practices.

Mass consumer action is different from encouraging everyone to purposely and intentional do everything possible to close a business. that, to me at least, is an action more relevant to a corporate takeover situation then a consumer situation.

No, it isn't necessarily different. Do you understand the purpose of a boycott?

And this situation is in no way analogous to a corporate takeover, which is still a legal action. The complainants here have no interest in taking over BTD's business operations.

A consumer situation would be better handled through legal authorities.

That's your opinion. And, as has been repeatedly stated, the involved parties ARE using recourse through the authorities, in addition to other measures.

Also: A little formatting would go a long way to making your posts easier to read, if not digest.

[Ironhide]

I'm digesting a burger and fries. Mmm Mmm good!

[locust]

I'm digesting a burger and fries. Mmm Mmm good!

[Ironhide]

So...to sum it up:
1. People paid for product.
2. Product not delivered.
3. Company won't answer e-mails and phone calls.
4. Company does this for years.
5. People now are trying to make people aware of said business' practices.
6. EVIL INC think this is vigilantism.
7. s_o_r_r_o_w defines what vigilantism is.

And that concludes our English class for today. EVIL INC, you fail. Go to the back of the room.

[EVIL INC]

The O.P. refers to the posts I pulled my quotes from in particuler in his listing of the links. That implies that those are the ones he agrees with. If they are not, then it would in my opinion, be better for him to not refer to them in particular.
So in your opinion, it is not slanderous to tell lies about someone in order to discredit them? Of course, if someone were to call the Queen of England an adulterating prostitute who engages in child pornography and claim to have proof and furthermore put it out to all of the world's newspapers, it would not be considered libelous either according to that logic.
""But with BTD I have to say what they are doing is outright fraud." Clearly an opinion that he presented as a fact. By the way, did he provide receipts, phone/e-mail statements to prove the basis for his opinion? I did not see them in the post. Of course, he may have provided them somewhere else. If he did, could you please post the link? I would like to see it.
true, a murderer does not have to murder everyone to be a murderer. Of course evidence should , in my opinion, be provided before someone is convicted of being a murderer. Likewise, if someone is accused of murdering everyone, they should murder everyone in order for the statement to be true, in my opinion.
Yes, a boycott is pretty basic. It is an attempt to put someone out of business. It does not mean that I should agree to a boycott of a company. I disagree with you in that I feel that I have a right to disagree with this particular boycott while you disagree with me in claim in that I do not have that right.
Yes, it is my opinion that legal channels should be used to deal with the particular situation at hand. You may disagree with me in that and I totally support your right to do so. It is also my opinion that the legal methods should be tried before resorting to such things as boycotts. It is my opinion that such things as boycotts should be a last resort rather then first.