8th Edition Review

[LadyAnara]

anything with poison attacks.

I noticed in my 3 full 8e games that auto killing models out of the horde is super nice. they don't get their 2 saves. Just the Ward or regen and that is almost always a 6+ which saves pretty few of them. Skink blowpipes for instance.

Templates,

Templates like salamanders are awesome against them. that -3 (or -2 I can't remember) to the save slaughters a supprising amount.

Tough units.

Ones that can sit there and grind and grind and grind. loosing a few models at a time but inflicting double their wounds to the mob. once those get tied up you can ignore the horde. blasting and attacking the smaller units until your tough unit dies then magic or shoot the remainders to death .

[reegsk]

-3 on the Salamanders.

And admittely 50 ASF, re-roll hits (if you're Initiative 5 or lower) hits is pretty nasty. . .but remember that they're all S3 and swung by T3 5+ armor save pansies. Elf bones are nice and brittle. Sure, that'll do a lot of damage to, say, clanrats or gobbos, but charge them with something T4+ and with a decent armor save.

[starslayer]

Isnt that block of 50 Elves gonna cost you about 500 points? Anything with a template, like a stonethrower or mortar is gonna hurt, and hurt bad!

[Asif Chaudhry]

AC, it's nowhere near as much doom and gloom as you're thinking. Before I had a chance to look at the rules myself, I thought the same way. But after reading the rulebook and playing the game, it's a lot better than it looks at first.

I certainly hope so - because I'd hate to think that it might be worse!

First off, magic isn't harder to cast, it's just more limited. I mean, can anyone deny that a 30+ power die Tzeentch Daemon list was completely ridiculous?

No - those armies were quite ludicrous. But one could argue that it was the army book that was messed up, and not the entire game system. *shrug*

Good casters are still good at casting, in fact better now. You get a bonus to your casting roll equal to your wizard level, meaning that a level 4 gets +4 to cast. Higher-level wizards still know more spells. And when you see what spells can do, you'll want to have at least a caster or two. To give you an idea, Fireball, the lowest spell in the Lore of Fire, does D6 S4 at 24" range. Not bad. Or, you can increase the power (and casting cost), to do 2d6 S4 hits at 36". Or you can go for 3d6 S4 hits at 48". Magic is interesting and potentially a lot more devastating now, but the price of miscasting is high.

I'll be interested to see what my regular Dwarf and Empire opponents do - right now, the standard is to grab a couple of low level guys, stock up on dispel scrolls, maybe throw in a warrior priest for flavor, and call it a day.

My initial (pessimistic) guess will be that they'll continue to do more of the same, if in fact magic IS a bit more limited, and use points saved towards more shooty troops to fill out back ranks, now that all those back ranks can shoot at will.

And WoC will be one of the nastiest armies in HtH now. Take a unit of fifteen Chaos Warriors with Halberds. Get them into close combat, and you have 15 attacks at S4, I5, meaning that you'll strike first if fighting Dwarfs, Lizardmen, humans, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings and some Daemons, whether you charge or not. Terrain no longer slows you down, so your warriors can march through a forest, gain soft cover, and get into the enemy's face all the faster. There are no partial hits from templates any more, true, but warmachines allow armor saves now. So if your T4, 4+ armor save chaos warriors get hit with a now S3 stone thrower, sure there will be a LOT of hits, but they'll wound on a 5+ and you'll get your 4+ armor save.

No offense, but just how big a unit of Chaos Warriors will I have to take, in order to get 15 guys to survive a ton of bow/gun/cannon/helblaster fire and into HtH combat? That's my thing - sure the math sounds great for Chaos in an isolated mathematical exercise, but in reality, my Chaos Warrior units invariably get shot to little pieces and are way too expensive on a per-mini basis to take in large blocks. Especially if I know my opponent wants to go bouncing cannon balls through my battle line.

As to Stone Throwers - I kind of liked that people had to guess, and THEN the thing scattered. Made it pretty easy to survive when the thing misses 8 times out of 10.

Now, assuming a small circle template smacks my unit and gets, say 6 guys. That's statistically 2 wounds, and I make 1 save, so 1 guy dies. No biggie, right? But if I paid 16 pts for that Chaos Warrior, then that unit won't be that big in the first case, and I'm liable to lose ranks and effective "fighting mass" pretty quickly.

See, here's the thing - most of my play group discovered long ago that Warhammer is really Parcheesi disguise. Who ever gets to throw the most dice, and rollest highest most often, wins.

So - getting to throw a lot more shooting hits means you get more chances to wound (by rolling 6 if need be), and thus forcing your opponent to risk rolling more 1's for armor saves.

Steadfast and Horde are great, and will really help crap units like goblins and slaves. But the thought of a unit of fifty guys getting charged by five mounted soldiers, losing only a handful of guys and fleeing is kind of ridiculous.

Sorry, but losing only a handful wouldn't cut it in 7th. A fully stocked horde unit invariably would have a +5 combat resolution (+1 for std, +3 for ranks, and +1 for outnumbering), so a small knight unit of 5 guys have to kill 5 dudes JUST TO BREAK EVEN and then hope you paid points for a muscian.

Now, in the old days of 5th ed, when some monkey with the hydra blade could kill 15 guys by himself when frenzied, in my mind that would be a great justification to run and hide! But that's just me.

And it doesn't make them better fighters, per se. Sure, slaves with spears can fight in four ranks, but they're still crap WS and normal S, and your guys fight in multiple ranks too. Hellcannons will be great for taking out those nice, juicy units that are ten wide, five deep.

See Parcheesi argument - Skaven guy is still throwing 28 more dice (assuming base to base contact plus 2 "corner touching" guys = 7 guys per rank x 4 ranks) than they used to. Yuck.

Trust me, read the rulebook and play a few games before you come to a final judgement. And try to do it with an open mind. This is the best thing to happen to warhammer since I started, seven years ago. 7th ed was HORRIBLE!

I'm willing to give it a try - to be honest, my curiosity is piqued by all the stuff I've been hearing, so I'm interested to see what happens. However, I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't a bit nervous about all the Empire/Dwarf/Elf players simply showing up with boat loads of shooty infantry and war machines that never guess, and blasting me straight off the table top.

[LadyAnara]

This is a list of stuff a friend and I put together after a few games of 8.


Warhammer Fantasy Rocket Edition Reviews and Thoughts:


It is not like War of the Ring.

Premeasuring is nice and not as broken as the internet seems to think.
The random charge was not as game changing as feared. Most units will charge further than before. It is only when you gamble on a risky charge that it might change things.

New magic works suprisingly well.
Lore modifiers don’t come into effect very much if at all. They are Likely to be overlooked and forgotten. Remember them.
Lores are better than book magics now.

The new magic item selection is useful but not awesome. There are few must have items.

The 2 ranks of shooting is very nice. Expect more gunlines, if that is even possible. Remember for shooting it is True Line of Sight.
The second rank getting to attack in hand to hand is pretty great too. Although models with 2 base attacks aren’t going to benefit from this as much as cheaper single attack units.

The Horde aka 10 across is iffy. I can’t tell if it is going to be better or worse for some units. The units will live a hell of a lot longer though. Cheaper mobs will probably be good but moderate to expensive units probably won’t be so hot. But horde rule plus hatred is definitely worth the points. Aka Dark Elves mobs and Empire with a warrior priest.

Template weapons.. yeah. Invest in more of them. They will pay for themselves against Hordes.

Leadership is more important than Initative. You seem to take a leadership test for everything. On a good note the battle standard lets you reroll all leadership tests in 12”. 18” on a Large mount.

Panic tests have changed a bunch. Guys fleeing through enemy units is only a difficult terrain test like 40k.They are not destroyed. Roll a dice for each guy on a 1 a guy dies. It feels more 6th edition.
Also you can always rally on a snakeyes.

The ward/regeneration save is super nice. Getting your regular save Plus a bonus ward/regen is easier and looks like it is going to be waaay more common.

The % point system will take a bit of getting used to but will allow a bit more variation than before. More uncommon units might make a showing.

Missions are still Victory points based for the most part, Points only for killed or fleeing units. No Half Points. It could be better. There are different deployment zones than before, also interesting. Less points for capturing standards.

The terrain is much more common, It can directly affect the game more than before. But is less of a pain to work with. It is also more clearly defined in the book. As are ALL the rules.

The game overall feels pretty similar with a few new tweaks.

At 2250 a standard list can include 2 lords and 5 heroes if points are spent properly.

Monsterous mounts eat points fast in the heroes/lords section.

Warmachines now count as 1 model. The crew are basicly the wounds for the machine.

Stubborn plus the generals leadership is king. Within 12 you get his leadership for the checks. Awesome.

Upgrades to the unit always die in a specific order
Musician, standard, then champion.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Asif,

Try it before you freek out. I was freeking out myself after I JUST read it. I was thinking this is broken, and this is too nerfed. I was all upset at a lot of things. When you add it all up i think it is a net gain. The game IS better.

Herohammer is not back. I think we will be seeing a lot more glory and centerpiece units, but they by themselves are not able to beat blocks of infantry.

I think shooting has gotten the biggest bump in power, which will Totally benefit dwarves. (pointed at Asif)

Thanks to Reegsk for clarifying a few points I missed.

Like I said to reegsk, I'll give it a try Norse, and I'll keep an open mind about it. I'll treat it as a brand new tabletop game that my buddies and I want to give a whirl.

I'm just a little jaded by now - in 5th ed, Chaos sucked (too over costed), in 6th/7th ed, they got a lot better (over the top to the point where I stopped playing to avoid getting lumped with all the band wagon munchkins who wouldn't know what "Realm of Chaos" and "Lost & the Damned" meant if they tried).

And now? It seems like predominantly HtH armies are going to get shot into little bitty pieces and thus suck again. Oh well - at least all the munchkins will sell off their Chaos for cheap and jump onto the shooty armies band wagons. So, I'll be able to play, and suck, but at least hold my head up high and say truthfully that I play Chaos because I love the fluff in my old RoC books.

-Asif

[Ironhide]

So my Dwarfs are going to be even better!

[Asif Chaudhry]

So my Dwarfs are going to be even better!

Well, let's put it this way Ironhide:

1.) Since you will be striking in Initiative order, your incentive to "march out and face the enemy!" is even less than it was before. Castle up Stunties!

2.) Your Thunderer and Quareller units can now fire 2 ranks deep, regardless of if they are on a hill or not, so setting up 10 man units, 5 wide 2 deep, all across your battle line will work just fine

3.) Opposing magic will be nasty, but you'll see less of it, since it is apparently "more limited", and your extra dispelling power as a race still seems intact.

4.) Now that you can fight multiple ranks deep, great weapon dwarves are an even better buy! 5 extra attacks at Str 5, at a high WS, will help make up for going last when you eventually do get charged. Now that Hand Weapon + Shield is no longer +1 Armor save, but instead a 6+ ward save, the inclination to get more great weapons may be greater.

5.) No more guessing for your artillery, and no more worrying about your crews getting picked off, makes your cannons/bolt throwers/grudge throwers more reliable and less fragile. Opponents will get armor saves against at least Str 3 stone throwers (don't know if people now get saves against cannons?), but your extra hits during a game should help balance that out.

6.) 40K-like "every thing a template touches is auto hit" makes your Flame Cannons perfect for anti-horde work - a 50 man unit of Skaven/Gobbos/Elves/Humans will stay the hell away from your line, giving you even more time to shoot them up.

I could go on, but since I don't have dwarves (just face them on a regular basis), I think it's safe to say that you'll enjoy some more victories in 8th ed. Whether you'll enjoy the GAMES while your Chaos Warrior/Brettonian/Ogre/Daemon/Beastman opponent struggles to get across the table to fight you, that's an entirely different question.

I'm hoping the games are at least enjoyable, even if I do end up doing a lot of losing (as a Chaos player).

[Norseman]

Totally forgot about the terrain changes in my first post.

I love the new terrain. There is 4 +d6 pieces of terrain for most games. Then a 2d6 random terrain generator. The different terrain is awesome. Well thought out and stuff that REALLY changes the game.

In one game i rolled
Tower of Blood - 6" radius of frenzy
River of light. - When you come into contact with river 1 random light spell takes effect on the unit.
Poison Forest - Take dangerous terrain tests for models that come into contact.
Few other basic ones

These items were really fun. Added an aspect to the game that was really interesting it created effects that would not normally be seen together in a normal 7th Ed game.

I was really surprised that LadyAnara thought hordes were not very strong. I am of the exact opposite opinion. I do agree that single attack troops are the only units to use in the formation though.

[Norseman]

Asif,

I think you just convinced me to get a dwarf army. LOL

Honestly I think Chaos has benefited as well. Take a look at your INIT stat. Chaos Warriors and Knights will be attacking first against almost everyone. HE going before and DE and Skaven Elite going at the same time. That is a MAJOR boost.

[starslayer]

I hate to go defensive all the time with Dwarves, but with always striking in Initiative order, I wont have much choice. Blast the enemy, force them to come to you, then counter-attack. Even Dwarf war machines will get an extra wound from the "apprentice" Engineer.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Asif,

I think you just convinced me to get a dwarf army. LOL

Honestly I think Chaos has benefited as well. Take a look at your INIT stat. Chaos Warriors and Knights will be attacking first against almost everyone. HE going before and DE and Skaven Elite going at the same time. That is a MAJOR boost.

Norse - Chaos was generally attacking first against everyone anyways. It's called "We charge you!".

The notion that elves or even lousy RATS are going to strike before my Chaos Knights is just dumb - I could live with the occasional rat/DE assassin popping out of a unit to mess me up, but the entire unit striking first? Good grief.

The important thing to me is - shooting got a lot more effective, but my army still has no shooting, so everyone else got a power level boost except for me. Seeing as how I wasn't tearing up the tournament/friendly gaming scene with Warriors to begin with, I find this development troubling.

Will the boost in shooting and "limiting" of magic help tame the runaway Daemon lists that have been dominating the scene of late? I don't know - but if my warriors are getting hung out to dry in the name of "For God's sake GW, do something about the broken Daemon army book!", then I sure as hell hope so!

I'll just have to set up some games once the little rulebook in the box set comes out (no way I'm forking out $75 for a ruleset I may well hate), and see how my Skaven/Dwarf/Empire opponents set up their armies and see how the games play out.

[Asif Chaudhry]

I hate to go defensive all the time with Dwarves, but with always striking in Initiative order, I wont have much choice. Blast the enemy, force them to come to you, then counter-attack. Even Dwarf war machines will get an extra wound from the "apprentice" Engineer.

See - dwarves have been doing this for years. And while they don't ring up the massacres, they accomplish draws and minor victories quite handily, by virtue of being almost impossible to shift, and blasting half your points off the table with shooting.

Now, with more effective shooting, uncertain charge ranges (Dwarves ability to counter charge into the flanks of engaged units actually got BETTER, due to 3" + 2d6 charge move instead of 6" - wtf ?!), and no guess artillery, I can see Dwarves scoring quite a few more Major victories and even a massacre or two.

Which is messed the heck up, for an army that just sets up on the table, and then the player just rolls dice and bends over once in a while to check LoS. Until maybe towards the end of the game, he has to wheel a block and counter charge an enemy unit in the flank that somehow managed to get through the shooting and charge a block of warriors/long beards/iron breakers.

Yeesh....

p.s. Hey Starslayer! My signature is full of awesome-ness! So suck on THAT!

[Asif Chaudhry]

Totally forgot about the terrain changes in my first post.

I love the new terrain. There is 4 +d6 pieces of terrain for most games. Then a 2d6 random terrain generator. The different terrain is awesome. Well thought out and stuff that REALLY changes the game.

In one game i rolled
Tower of Blood - 6" radius of frenzy
River of light. - When you come into contact with river 1 random light spell takes effect on the unit.
Poison Forest - Take dangerous terrain tests for models that come into contact.
Few other basic ones

These items were really fun. Added an aspect to the game that was really interesting it created effects that would not normally be seen together in a normal 7th Ed game.

I was really surprised that LadyAnara thought hordes were not very strong. I am of the exact opposite opinion. I do agree that single attack troops are the only units to use in the formation though.

Huh! Random effect terrain sounds wacky - I'm just wondering if they describe size for some of these things - 10 pieces of terrain that muck up LoS would be very welcome. 5 pieces, not so much.

Is there a table/system in the rulebook that tells you how to deploy the terrain (table quarters perhaps?).

I'm sure Daemons will love having to cross a River of Light to charge an enemy shooty army.

As for Anara's aversion to hordes, it could be that she faces undead regularly, and has seen her fair share of large infantry blocks failing a terror test, or being outnumbered by a skeleton horde, and simply running away full speed - horde armies in the past were always balanced by the fact that they were relatively easy to run off due to low leadership.

With all the "extended general LD" and "Steadfast = stubborn" stuff going around in 8th, it may be that hordes will be more effective now in burying the enemy in an avalanche of screaming meanies. Who knows? *shrug*

[Ironhide]

I hate to go defensive all the time with Dwarves, but with always striking in Initiative order, I wont have much choice. Blast the enemy, force them to come to you, then counter-attack. Even Dwarf war machines will get an extra wound from the "apprentice" Engineer.

See - dwarves have been doing this for years. And while they don't ring up the massacres, they accomplish draws and minor victories quite handily, by virtue of being almost impossible to shift, and blasting half your points off the table with shooting.

This is true.

Once upon a time a book came out called "Storm of Chaos", and it allowed me to field an entire army of slayers. It wasn't a great, outstanding, kill-em-all army, but it was nice! Then GW came along and took it away. You know how much money it costs to make an all slayer army?? Do you???