BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker - Resolved

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Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:43 pm

The rock he is standing on appears to already have some overhang on the bases. Moving that rock forwards or backwards on the base is possible, easily doable, and remedies the problem of rank and filing, all without the need to "convert" or "repose".

Just because he doesn't like the way they stand next to each other, doesn't mean I slighted him.

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by pretre » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:46 pm

3eland wrote:Therefore, in my own personal (not official staff) opinion, there is no way the OP could make 57 Warlords rank and file without heavy converting.
I kind of agree here. And moving them forward and back doesn't look like it will work.
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Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:54 pm

Arms out to the left and right, on the y axis if you will. Think of the proposed movement on the base as the x axis. If you add or subtract any amount of distance to the x axis, the arms have to move with it. A centimeter forward, a centimeter back, and you can stagger them in line so that they don't get in each others way.

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:11 pm

In theory staggering works. It works on spearmen. The problem is the warlords don't just have their weapon point forward. The are almost straight out to the side. You would have to turn them facing different directions to get the bases to line up and that only get 2-3 together. Getting 50+ ranked up is no possible without converting them.

If Cj never bothered trying to put them next to each other then that is still a failing of rule 4a. He said they work as stormvermin without any conversion but failed to actually verify this claim despite having the models on hand to do so. That is not accurately describing your models in my opinion.

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:18 pm

The weapons being pointed straight out to the side with that slight up angle is EXACTLY why staggering works. You are being greedy and trying to get more money out of me, while destroying my rep at the same time.

You are just assuming the models won't stagger. You aren't verifying it. Seems like by your definition of rules violations, you are violating 4a too.

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:30 pm

Here is a pic of them at different heights and staggered.
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:32 pm

Staggered and different heights from the other side.
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:35 pm

Hello all,

Here is my official question:

Is there a missing message between squirrelofwar's of 13 Jan at 4:46 pm and Siebebeast2142's of Jan 14 at 10:11pm?

I would prefer that no one else other than the trade partners post from here on in.
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Wrong pic this is the other side.

I think the pictures clearly show that these will not rank up by just staggering or alternating heights.

I don't care how many times I'm called greedy. Cj either made a mistake or intentionally lied to push a trade. Either way all I ask is that he take responsibility and make the trade right by providing either stormvermin, money to buy them, or a suitable replacement. Once that is done I will happily send him back his IoB warlords and call this trade complete.
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:44 pm

Yes there was a missing message. My apologies, doing all this on my phone since my computer is down and mush have missed the message.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:53 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142
I got the skaven in the mail today. Packing worked great, there were a few broken pieces but nothing major. I have been able to sort through and do a count and I'm missing a couple things.

Missing:
Grey seer(there is a plague priest, don't know if you confused the two.)
warp grinder

The second and greater issue are the warlords. You had told me that these could be used as stormvermin without issue. They are impossible to rank up together. The wide pose means that they catch on each other and prevent them from being formed in ranks, and as such makes them useless as stormvermin. This part is a big deal to me because stormvermin were something that I needed included and we changed from you providing a box of them when you told me you had 50+ of these that would work as stormvermin. They definitely do have the right weapons, halberd and hand weapon, but they can't rank. The above missing models is a smaller issue but this warlord/stormvermin doesn't work for me at all. As it stands at the moment I am down $142 in models.

I am happy to work out a solution with you that can work for us both. So let me know what you think and any ideas you have for a possible solution.

Also I know you said there was a bike and some packs missing in my lot so I am happy to call the missing warp grinder a wash against those things
This was the message sent after I had a chance to inventory the skaven he sent.

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:52 pm

My time stamps are 2 hours off due to time zone differences.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:46 pm
by squirrelowar

I will double check my stuff but I believe everything made it into the box. It went straight from my foam to the box. It is possible that I miscounted by 1 bike, or counted the captain when I counted and then typed it up wrong. The backpacks were most likely never there since it is painted over, if you need them I might be able to find them in bits if you don't have any. If these pose a large problem to you then we can talk about a remedy after the skaven get here.

I do apologize if I miscounted though. The backpacks is definitely probably something I overlooked, I've always hated marine backpacks so never paid much attention to them.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:53 pm
by squirrelowar

I got the skaven in the mail today. Packing worked great, there were a few broken pieces but nothing major. I have been able to sort through and do a count and I'm missing a couple things

Missing:
Grey seer(there is a plague priest, don't know if you confused the two.)
warp grinder

The second and greater issue are the warlords. You had told me that these could be used as stormvermin without issue. They are impossible to rank up together. The wide pose means that they catch on each other and prevent them from being formed in ranks, and as such makes them useless as stormvermin. This part is a big deal to me because stormvermin were something that I needed included and we changed from you providing a box of them when you told me you had 50+ of these that would work as stormvermin. They definitely do have the right weapons, halberd and hand weapon, but they can't rank. The above missing models is a smaller issue but this warlord/stormvermin doesn't work for me at all. As it stands at the moment I am down $142 in models.

I am happy to work out a solution with you that can work for us both. So let me know what you think and any ideas you have for a possible solution.

Also I know you said there was a bike and some packs missing in my lot so I am happy to call the missing warp grinder a wash against those things


_----------------------end of left out messages------

Might I suggest a more pronounced staggering of a 15mm stagger on that 25mm base, instead of moving one back but keeping the other centered?

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:59 pm

Here is my issue with the complainant's case:
space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:50 pm
by Siegebeast2142
Hey, I have a fairly large skaven army I'd like to trade for it. I have about 200 clan rats, the skaven main lord, a grey seer, a doom wheel, about a dozen rat ogres, several weapons teams, mostly warp fire thrower and poisoned wind globadiers, but I have one tunneling team as well. I have something like 30 warlords. I also have six of the infantry globe throwers.

I'd like to trade for your entire space marine lot.


Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:20 pm
by Siegebeast2142
Most of the ogres, special weapons teams and warlords, and probably half the clan rats. Most of it is assembled, except warlords. Primed or no point on virtually everything. The infantry globe throwers is the only unit painted.


Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:02 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

The warlords are skaven models that can be hero's or lords. The guy that I got the stuff from was planning on converting them into storm vermin, but he never got around to it. The skaven lord I mentioned is lord skrulk.

Rat ogres with the pack masters are 25 per 2 ogres and 1 master, $150
Clan rats are 35 per 20, $350
Doom wheel $30
At least 6 weapons teams at 15 per team, $90
Skaven warlords, isle of blood, $10/model, >20, $200
Poisoned wind globadiers, 15x6, $90

Total a little over $900.


Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:54 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Yeah, I don't think I'm comfortable with that pricing. You are pricing starter set models as if they are full retail multi part plastic kits. I see two ways to price them fair. You take the average of recent ebay sale or you divide up the actual retail cost of IoB. Either on I think will change that total quite a bit. Just based off the number of things you have it seems like you have 5 sets of IoB stuff but without pics I couldn't say for sure.

Just a quick glance at ebay:
clanrats at $1 each
warlords at $5, honestly though if they are meant to be stormvermin I would price them as such. As stormvermin I see a use and would pay that price, as heroes I have no interest in paying for 30 of a single pose hero.
rat ogres $10
Pack master $1
weapon teams $3

so if everything is IoB you are looking at:
200 Clanrats = $200
12 rat ogres + pack master= $66
20 warlords = $50 (priced as new box stormvermin)
6 weapon teams = $18
doom wheel = $30
poisoned wind($10 for 1) = $50
Lord Skrolk = $15
Grey seer = $15

That would put that total at $444. Which it could be a little higher if some of it is multi part instead of IoB.



Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:41 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

My email is squirrelowar@outlook.com.

I posted a question on starter set pricing in the general gw forum here on bartertown to see how others usually set prices. I'm not trying to screw anyone and if I'm wrong on how I am pricing stuff then I'm more then willing to try something else.

My point of view is this, IoB contains:
Skaven Warlord

Skaven Warlock Engineer
40 Skaven Clanrats
Skaven Master Moulder
2 Skaven Rat Ogres
Skaven Warpfire Thrower
Skaven Poisoned Wind Mortar

That is half the models in a $99 box so if we ignore the rulebook and stuff then that is $50 worth of stuff and makes up around 1/5th of what you are offering. In my lot, 1 cannon is $56, 3 bikes are $40, a storm talon is $45. That just doesn't seem like it's a fair trade to but full multi part retail value on those models and turn that $50 lot into $150. That is why I usually go off the average of recent ebay sales. It gets you a higher price than just saying retail in half the starter cost. Also like I said before if some of it isn't IoB models then I am fine giving full retail in trade



Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:15 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

It is a large lot of skaven. Unfortunately I will have to pass at this time. I am very interested in skaven and I do like your lot, the problem besides the price is that outside of the doom wheel it doesn't really have any of the other center piece models I am looking for, abomination, screaming bell, artillery ect. Also I'm not sure that I can convert 20-30 lords to be proper stormvermin.

So with all that considered I don't think a straight army swap would work out for me. If anything changes though feel free to send me another offer. When I do trades I definitely want us both to be happy in the end.

Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:22 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

What if I bought a box of storm vermin? Looking at the spruces on gws site, it looks like they come w/2 different kinds of weapons options, which would give you the arms for the warlord conversions
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:40 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

That would definitely help with the stormvermin. Ideally I'd like either models or money to even out the trade. The things that I'd be most interested in is another doom wheel, abomination, and screaming bell. That is a good chunk of money though. Let me do some thinking on it and if you are still interested you can think on it too and we'll see if we can work something out
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:09 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Alright so I've been giving it some thought and I really do wanna make this trade with you. I want a skaven army. I got a couple replies on my posted question, not a flood of replies but enough to reinforce what I already knew from my experience in this hobby.
viewtopic.php?f=106&t=248716
If you have anything to add, I welcome you to post it in there. I would like to see what they think, because while I don't agree and have always trade/sold starter models for less(even my own) I can see and understand your point of view.

With that said I propose the following. I realize it is probably more than you want to do but it's what i'm comfortable with at the moment. I just want to emphasize that I do want to complete this trade with you.

I am fuzzy on some of your model count like the warlords went from 30 to 20 so we'll obviously need a full count
200 Clanrats
12 rat ogres + pack masters
20 warlords
6 weapon teams
Doomwheel
5 poisoned wind globes
Lord Skrolk
Grey seer
Skaven army book
Whfb rule book
Box of stormvermin
Doom wheel kit
Either a Hellpit Abom. kit or Screaming bell/plague fur kit

for:

34 bikes
Captian on bike
Chapter master on bike(thunder hammer/shield eternal)
2 storm talons
3 thunderfire cannons
Nos scouts
Nos rhino(missing top hatch

Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:45 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I'm going through and getting pictures now. The warlords don't need any converting to be storm vermin, both are armed w/halbreds and hand weapons.

As I'm taking pictures and counting models, I thought of a way we might be able to comprimise on the clan rats worth... You value them a buck a piece, and me at a buck and a quarter. Would you be willing to call it a buck and a dime each
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:47 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Glad I still have all my plasma guns then! That's how I'm going to be playing them.

Here is the count. All models that I have that can come from an iob box, did come from an iob box.

The clan rats can also be used as slaves, AFAIK, they are the same box/weapon load out.

Model # times value = total

Clan rats 261 x 1.10 = 287
Rat ogres 10 x 10 = 100
Warp fire throwers 5x3=15
Poisoned wind mortars 5x3=15
Packmaster 5x1=5
Warlord assembled painted 1x5=5
Engineers 7 x 2 (sell on eBay for four each, but figure you would have same problem as the warlords. I use most of them as champion models.)=14
Nos iob warlords to count as storm vermin 57 x 2.5=142
Warp grinder 1 x 15 = 15
Poisoned wind globadiers 5x10=50
Pack master skweel 1x15=15
Lord skrulk 1x15=15
Grey seer 1x15=15
Doom wheel 1x30=30

Total for me is at 723, not including mini rulebook or army book. 33 for the army book, and last sold eBay mini rulebook was 15. Brings me up to 771.

I really don't need the rhino. If you are willing to drop the rhino, we come to 771 me to just under 800 for you. How does that sound to you?

Several times I see Siegebeast stating that these models are "counts as" Stormvermin that the previous owner had intended to convert into Stormvermin. I see an offer to purchase a box of Stormvermin to aid in any conversion work.

I see Squirrelofwar discuss the relative skill needed to perform these conversions.

I see pictures exchanged, I see research on the part of Squirrelofwar regarding the models in question and their pricing.

I frankly can't see how you can make the claim, Squirrelofwar, having ever seen one of these Warlords, that you didn't know what you were getting.
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:15 pm

I was considering doing the conversion when it was just a weapon swap, which is what was talked about. Never in any of the messages did Cj ever talk about having to repose the warlords in order to get them to rank up. My issue isn't with the weapons its with the fact that they can't rank. Does a counts as model not need to be a functional replacement? If you can't rank the warlords I don't see how they can be considered to be a conversion free replacement for stormvermin.

I researched the price of the warlords on ebay, the same as I did with all the other models.

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:20 pm

Weren't you stating earlier in this thread that you thought them to be conversion free? Now, you stated that you "were considering doing the conversion..."

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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:29 pm

squirrelowar wrote:I was considering doing the conversion when it was just a weapon swap, which is what was talked about. Never in any of the messages did Cj ever talk about having to repose the warlords in order to get them to rank up. My issue isn't with the weapons its with the fact that they can't rank. Does a counts as model not need to be a functional replacement? If you can't rank the warlords I don't see how they can be considered to be a conversion free replacement for stormvermin.

I researched the price of the warlords on ebay, the same as I did with all the other models.
Fair enough--but again, I find it hard to believe, given your demonstrated familiarity with IoB, the pics, your own research, and the discussion of conversion, that you did not know that these were not plug-and-play Stormvermin swaps. The fact that these are Skaven Warlord models could not have been made more clear to you.

I see Siegebeast's statement about conversion--but that comes very late in the contemplation.

I frankly see 1 of two options here--the usual two.

1. You each send back what you received. I think you both paid your own shipping sending. I think Squirrelofwar should pay both shipping here, but I would suggest you both settle on paying your own shipping in order to get a resolution.
2. You both keep what you have, learn from the errors (more pics are better, avoid making assumptions), and wrap this ugly back and forth up.
I am always in the market for weird and wonderful GW oddbitz and ephemera. PM me if you have something old/weird/rare.

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