Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei) - Resolved

These BTR's have been resolved. The accused may or may not have been involved in the resolution. Familiarize yourself with this section as a preventative measure.

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Snarkhunter ( 54 )
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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:05 pm

@s_o_r_r_o_w: I think your appraisal of this incident is grossly inaccurate. Let's look at the facts that have been provided and consider both hollowhelm's actions and my actions.

Let's start by looking at hollowhelm's actions:

Snarkhunter: "This looks like: sorc on bull, 3 demonsmiths, 10 IG, 3 IG command, and a magma cannon. Is everything else new on sprue?"

hollowhelm: "Yeah those are the only ones that I assembled I think as I kept them on my shelf, everything else is in a box downstairs."

*The truth is that the Incarnate Elemental of Fire was also assembled. This is a ~$113 model who's value is dramatically different depending on whether it is new on sprue or assembled.

Snarkhunter: "Are there bases for everything?"

hollowhelm: "The cannons and stuff never came with bases but everything else has bases."

*The truth is that Drazhoath the Ashen and the Incarnate Elemental of Fire are both missing their bases, which would cost about $10 on ebay to replace.

hollowhelm: "I can have my girlfriend pack the stuff up as ship tmr morning if you can get payment in today."

hollowhelm: "I had my wife pack this."

*It isn't directly relevant to the trade, but there is definitely some inconsistency in what hollowhelm is saying here.

hollowhelm on Nov 6: "Payment received. Will ship tomorrow. Thanks!"

hollowhelm on Nov 8: "Got it sent"

*He promised to ship on Nov 7, but did not until Nov 8.

hollowhelm: "I will make sure that everything is securely packaged. Will put in one box."

hollowhelm: "The dread quake was coming in the mail as we negotiated and should be here shortly. I stated that in the post that I made when I was selling these. I will ship that when it arrives no problem."

hollowhelm: " I bought these as a lot from ebay a while back."

*He never stated anything about sending part of the shipment later, in fact, he said it would all be sent in one box. Also, if he bought everything a while back as a lot from ebay, then why was he waiting on the dreadquake?

hollowhelm: "The guy I bought from told me that it was just a miscast and that they're supposed to be like that."

*He initiated a trade for the models and never warned his trade partner about this conversation with his supplier? Are we supposed to believe that he wasn't trying to cheat his trade partner?

hollowhelm: "Refunded through PayPal."

*Not true. In fact he simply plead no contest or equivalent to my paypal claim. The money was not, and has not been, refunded to my account (see the email from PayPal in my previous post). A promise has been made by PayPal that the money will be refunded if I submit a tracking # and a signature upon delivery for sending the models back to hollowhelm, at my cost.

Summary: It is clear that hollowhelm acted in bad faith from the beginning. He omitted important information that the models were "miscast", he made false statements about the condition of the models, he promised bases for the models and failed to deliver, and after failing to deliver portions of the shipment - tried to claim that he had given forewarning that the remaining goods would be delivered later.


Now for my actions:

Snarkhunter: "Considering your rating of 0 (welcome to barter town, btw), could we do half the $ now and half upon delivery?"

hollowhelm: " I cannot do half half as I have alot of experience on Dakkadakka + this is alot of stuff."

Snarkhunter: "Payment has been sent by paypal."

*Although dealing with a new trader with a rating of Zero, I offered to pay half before shipment and half after. Bartertown "rules" would have the person with the lower rating (hollowhelm) ship first. When he refused, I agreed to pay him in full prior to shipment.

hollowhelm: "Payment received."

*I provided my side of the deal exactly as promised and within one hour of being provided with his PayPal information.

Snarkhunter: "I received the package today, and I'm not very happy. ... I'd like to know what you suggest in order to resolve these issues."

Snarkhunter: "Please let me know when the dreadquake arrives. Don't worry about the bases, as long as you are able to send me the dreadquake."

*When my initial inventory showed irregularities in the condition of the assembled models and the fact that a couple of big models were missing and an extra model included, I communicated politely and reasonably with my trade partner, offering him the chance to suggest a solution. When offered a solution, I was willing to work with him even though it was less than the deal we had originally agreed upon.

I then had to opportunity to make a closer inspection of the models, and it became clear that the models could be counterfeit. I chose to research this possibility before making any accusations, which led me to contact ForgeWorld for their opinion. I spent time taking photos, emailing them, researching my protections on PayPal which may be needed if these items are counterfeit, and also researching the rules on Bartertown as they may apply. Upon ForgeWorld's confirmation that the models appear to be recast, I spent time preparing a proper Bad Trade Report and posted it. Then I filed a claim on PayPal as the recepient of counterfiet items (a subcategory of SNAD). The fact that the models are counterfeit precludes a discussion with the seller and an attempt to work it out.

Since hollowhelm involved me in this situation, I have had to spend a considerable amount of my time to communicate with ForgeWorld, PayPal and to properly include all of the various communications into a legible BTR format.

I have continued to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, despite his numerous falsehoods, even providing him with information to help him not be fooled by recasts in the future.

I have even worked out a solution where everyone does okay: The seller gets to keep the money (since I will not be sending the models back to him), I get real ForgeWorld models, and ForgeWorld gets some recasts off the market and some information towards trying to stop their production.

Throughout this process, from my initial communication with hollowhelm, I have been an honest trader willing to give my trade partner more than a reasonable benefit of the doubt. In no way have I "victimized" hollowhelm or acted in "bad faith".

@hollowhelm: I have followed Bartertown rules to the best of my ability in posting your personal information. In fact, when my first post was edited by the moderator (MagickalMemories) to remove your phone #, he left all the rest of the information (and I didn't repost your phone # in any of my further communications). As I state above, I have not received a refund from you, merely a conditional promise of a refund (which will not occur because I will not meet that condition). I was placed into this situation by your choice to sell counterfeit models.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:22 pm

I'll provide a deeper analysis of why I think you're wrong, at least in part, later.

For now, let's see the part where you cancel the SNAD, proving that you're not trying to get a free Chaos Dwarf army at Hollowhelm's expense.
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hollowhelm ( -8 )
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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by hollowhelm » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:38 pm

First of all, lets condense the points you brought up in your last post.
1. you said that models are missing their bases
2. The shipment being sent later than I promised
3. The dread quake mortar being a later shipment
4. Me not talking to you about my trade with my last partner
5. Paypal Refund
6. Payment upfront
7. You stating that you were trying to work out a deal with me

Heres my answers to them:
1. I provided an explanation for the missing models as soon as you asked and I stated in the very beginning that it wasn't me personally who packed the models.
2. Again, I didn't personally pack the models as I have university to attend in the morning. In the afternoon I noticed that it wasn't sent so I came back and personally sent it myself. I never said that it was "sent". Once I found out that it wasn't sent, I sent it myself right away.
3. I simply bought this on a later date. I am not sure why I am expected to buy the entire army in one go from one person. That just makes no sense and doesn't mean that it's not inconsistent at all.
4. I simply didn't think it was necessary to tell you about the last trade and also the occasion simply never came up. If you had asked me where the packaged came from or if the occasion came up I would have gladly provided you with the information. This is why I provided so many pictures, its so you can see the details and decide for yourself. Don't try to make it sound like I tricked you in anyway.
5. Paypal stated that I need to respond and I clicked the best option there (because paypal took the money out of my account and is holding it, and you would have your money back once I get the models. Which is the option that YOU HAD PROPOSED!)
6. I have done quite a few deals on dakkadakka and we always do payment upfront. If you had insisted that you didn't like it, you didn't have to take the deal. You knew from the beginning and so this is not a very good argument to make.
7. You stated that you tried to work with me, but CLEARLY you didn't beyond the initial 2 short messages. Also, if you had talked to me first instead of trying to take advantage of me both through paypal and forge world, I would have gladly provided you an explanation. I also stated that "I understand if you don't like the product and don't really want to make you lose out as its my all means unfair. So I'll just take the *edit* end of the metaphorical stick (both from you and from that ebay guy) and ill return all your coins." This shows that I AM working in good faith as I am trying to the best of my possibility to work this out WITH YOU and not trying to drag others to back me up like what you're doing.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:40 pm

From: <service@paypal.com>
Date: Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:36 PM
Subject: Investigation Complete - Case # PP-002-759-549-662
To: {Snarkhunter's email}

Dear {Snarkhunter},

Because you reported that this claim has been amicably resolved, this case
has been closed.

Seller's Name: Jianbin Wei
Seller's Email: [Admin edit by MM - no PH#'s or email addresses]
Seller's Transaction ID: 5K899824GR853640T

Transaction Date: Nov 6, 2013
Transaction Amount: -$575.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 88J5164721470432T
Case Number: PP-002-759-549-662

Buyer's Transaction ID: 88J5164721470432T

Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
PayPal

hollowhelm ( -8 )
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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by hollowhelm » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:50 am

@SnarkHunter
Thank you for cancelling the refund through paypal. This is a lot more comforting to me knowing that I won't ultimately lose everything and lose on every end of the stick. You doing this, even with no real power forcing you to do so has changed my opinion of you. I initially thought you wanted to score a double (both from paypal and from Forgeworld) and leave me with nothing and that you are acting in bad faith. However, after you doing this, proved (to me at least) that you truly are trying to solve this problem and that we both are indeed victims. Therefore, I will GLADLY work with FW, GW and you (although I believe I have done so all along) to catch the culprits that are responsible for doing the counterfeits and forgeries. Please let me know if they need anything or any information from me as I will gladly provide the information and point fingers but please keep that on this post still as I want to keep everything open for everyone. I received the dread quake mortar in the mail and can provide to GW as well if they want for further evidence etc. Should I contact them myself or wait for them to contact me and respond? It's a shame this had to happen as this is right in my exam week and is quite distracting for me, also I believe it killed my enthusiasm for this hobby and is just all around bad for me.

Last thing, I want to politely ask you to please remove my personal informations especially my fathers information and Paypal information from this post as it's very dangerous for us. Thanks.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:14 am

I do not have the option to edit previous posts of this thread. I think you would have to make that request to a moderator.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by MagickalMemories » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:40 am

@hollowhelm
I've removed the paypal address. The physical address stays, though.
As a general rule, we don't allow ph #'s and, at your request (since you're, at least, being responsive) have removed the PayPal email.
Snarkhunter has made a couple good points about inaccuracies on your part, however.

@Snark
Sorrow has made good points, as well. While I don't believe you've done anything shady or underhanded in going to FW, the truth is that you should have, at least, notified hollow in advance that you were doing so.

Had you ended up with a refund AND the FW models, you and I would be having an entirely different discussion, and not in public, unless you swiftly sent it back to hollowhelm. Since that is not the case however, I think all is well.

Eric

P.S. I think FW is kind of crappy for only giving you a value equal to what you PAID, rather than the MSRP for the items you're sending them.
Lower rating? You ship first.

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I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

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Want my help with a BTR or backout? All messages sent/posted should be in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Otherwise, I just won't read it.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:06 pm

@MagickalMemories - From my perspective, I think this is now resolved. Thanks!

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:54 pm

Since this appears to be resolved, I will keep my remarks short.

Snarkhunter, your own quotations from Hollowhelm include conditionals and qualifiers like "I think". The fact that there are some inaccuracies arises in part from this. BUT I agree with you that HH has the responsibility of accurately describing everything. So he is at fault there. And you know what? He OWNED that.

And you're right again--on the bases and whatever happened with the whole cannon/mortar thing--that feels dodgy to me. I would be concerned. But a lot less so when the guys says, "Sorry--I thought all the bases were in there. I'll send you replacements right away. And I sent you the wrong cannon? No problem. KEEP that one, and I'll send the replacement right away." I don't see the part where he says a shipment is still pending coming in, but I don't know if you quoted the whole ad or not.

At this point in the transaction, like you, I might be feeling a little nervous.

The shipping a day late is trivial. Mildly annoying, but ultimately irrelevant. Life happens. He sent you proof of shipment.

At this point, you're all good though. You tell him, "If it works out as you say, then I'll be very pleased with our deal."

Of course, it turns out you're lying.

Because 12 hours later you're sending emails to Forge World on suspicion that the items are recasts.

You don't contact your seller. At this point, you are under the belief that he is still sending you models.

The next day, still without contacting your trade partner, you initiate a BTR and leave a NEGREF--on Forge World's statement that they "look like" recasts. And you initiated a SNAD with PayPal. At this point, you are positioning yourself to get your money back, and do who knows what with the models. You haven't advised your trade partner not to send the additional cannon, nor that you are going to send his figs back to him.

When you do deign to reply to him, he agrees to "No contest" the claim. He didn't have time to offer you a REFUND, because you did not advise him of a problem. He follows through and agrees on Paypal to the refund.

You then stall a couple of more days, despite my direction to return those models to the seller.

In this period, you work out a side deal in which you will exchange these potential recasts for brand new FW! Yay you! At this point, PayPal has told you that they found in your favour and all you need to do is send them back to the seller. So what are you going to do? You're in a bit of a conundrum.

You could send them back to the guy who sold them to, and whose money you are trying to get back from him, or you can send them to this other third party that is incentiving you to do so! And you choose--FW!

You come back and tell us--finally--that you have not only decided to send them back to FW, but that you have done so--again without discussion with your trade partner.

What about the claim at PayPal? Too bad, so sad, Hollowhelm. You "expect that the pending refund from PayPal will expire". You don't know this, and you don't know how it will affect Hollowhelm or his account, but who cares? You're getting FW from FW!

It takes specific direction--AGAIN--to get you to do the right thing and cancel your SNAD claim with PayPal.

This whole last sequence of action on your part is scummy. I don't even care if HH is a legitimate scammer --YOUR conduct is below the bar. Traders are expected to communicate, forthrightly and frequently, to resolve trades and trade problems. Cutting your trade partner out of the loop is bad conduct, period.

It's even worse conduct if Hollowhelm is genuinely innocent of anything other than a bit of bungling.


But before I close this off, I want to direct a few words to Hollowhelm as well:

Be a better trader.

Describe your trade items fully and completely.

Trade only what you have in hand.

Send what you say you'll send, in the condition you say you'll send it.

If your earlier trade partner told you an item was miscast, tell your next trade partner. This is not a suggestion, but an obligation.

Don't deal in recasts.

You are on my radar now; don't make me regret taking your part here.
I am always in the market for weird and wonderful GW oddbitz and ephemera. PM me if you have something old/weird/rare.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:17 pm

@ s_o_r_r_o_w: I will try to be more communicative in the future. It was never my intent to do anything shady or scummy.

Any thoughts about the remaining dreadquake mortar and death shrieker rocket models?

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:37 pm

Snarkhunter wrote:@ s_o_r_r_o_w: I will try to be more communicative in the future. It was never my intent to do anything shady or scummy.

Any thoughts about the remaining dreadquake mortar and death shrieker rocket models?
What would your intention be regarding them? FW is sending you a bunch of NIB models to compensate for your receipt of allegedly recast models--all of which you were to send to them. You already sent the models to FW, so it won't affect what they send you one way or another, at this point.
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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:48 pm

I don't particularly care what happens with them. I paid for them as part of the $575, but if they are recasts then I don't want them. I just wanted to know if you thought he had an obligation to ship them, since he did receive payment in full for them.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:29 pm

Snarkhunter wrote:I don't particularly care what happens with them. I paid for them as part of the $575, but if they are recasts then I don't want them. I just wanted to know if you thought he had an obligation to ship them, since he did receive payment in full for them.
That's a good question.

In my view, he had offered to ship the Mortar and the bases in order to conclude the trade satisfactorily (I don't see anything in this thread about outstanding Death Shriekers).

You said that was fine, and then you changed the terms of the deal by initiating the BTR, the NEGREF, the SNAD, and involving FW.

By my strict interpretation of the deal, in terms of who is REQUIRED to do what, there are two scenarios (order of actions in each is arbitrary):

1. You return all of his models, at his expense (since they were SNAD), and he returns to you your PayPal.
or
2. He sends you the Dreadquake and Bases at his expense (and possibly some rebate to cover that one additional models was assembled), and you return (at his expense) the extra cannon.

Had you posted in the BTR that you were concerned about the authenticity of the models, I would have proposed scenario 1, or even scenario 3, below, as the appropriate course. But you took 3 off the table when you reneged on it by this BTR etc.

3. He sends you the Dreadquake and Bases at his expense, and you keep the extra cannon to compensate any issues.

As it stands now, you can't return anything, as you no longer have it in hand.

Further, you've posted a BTR and a NEGREF (cart in front of the horse), so why should Hollowhelm conclude the deal at this point? You already spiked his offer.
I am always in the market for weird and wonderful GW oddbitz and ephemera. PM me if you have something old/weird/rare.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by Snarkhunter » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:04 pm

Regarding the death shrieker rocket, it was listed as part of the original lot which I purchased, but I think hollowhelm sent the extra magma cannon on accident instead of the death shrieker (they are about the same size and value). Considering that to be an even exchange, I would think he would still be obligated to provide the dreadquake mortar since he has received payment in full (and I waived the bases already).

But in your opinion, the fact that a BTR and negative trade reference were posted by me removes his obligation to ship the remaining models? So its right by you that he should retain the $575 and the remaining models which were part of the original deal (if authentic, the dreadquake mortar would be worth around $125 retail). I don't understand how you can reach this conclusion. Posting a trade reference or BTR doesn't change the deal - as I understand it they are methods for attempting to enforce a deal and make the community aware of the details which occurred.

Regardless, as I said above, I think this matter is resolved. If hollowhelm wants to ship me the missing dreadquake mortar, that's fine (I'll just send it to ForgeWorld to be tested with the rest). If he wants to gift it to his younger brother, that's fine. I hope he doesn't try to sell it to someone else on this forum, I think it would be wrong to get paid twice for it, and if it is recast like the rest, then even worse.

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Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:21 pm

Snarkhunter wrote:Regarding the death shrieker rocket, it was listed as part of the original lot which I purchased, but I think hollowhelm sent the extra magma cannon on accident instead of the death shrieker (they are about the same size and value). Considering that to be an even exchange, I would think he would still be obligated to provide the dreadquake mortar since he has received payment in full (and I waived the bases already).
Ordinarily, I would agree.
Snarkhunter wrote:But in your opinion, the fact that a BTR and negative trade reference were posted by me removes his obligation to ship the remaining models?
No. Again, I would ordinarily agree that he is obligated to ship the remaining models to conclude the trade. As he offered to do.
Snarkhunter wrote:Posting a trade reference or BTR doesn't change the deal - as I understand it they are methods for attempting to enforce a deal and make the community aware of the details which occurred.
I guess you misunderstand the point of a NEGREF. BTRs are tools used to enforce a deal and to make the community aware of a problem. NEGREFS are a different tool, one used to indicate that at the end of a deal, you were left unsatisfied. The NEGREF you left says that there were recasts and missing models. Your NEGREF was premature--if HH sends you the missing models, it will be inaccurate.

But my big problem here is that you short-circuited the system. On Bartertown, you don't get your money AND get to keep the figs. And instead of sending the figs back to HH, you sent them to FW, who are sending you $575.00 worth of FW in a deal you made with them. You have been "made whole", to employ a legal principle you raised already. That could have been done in a different way--HH could have sent you the Mortar et al, you could have returned the figs and got a refund--those are the standard Bartertown sort of solutions. But you chose a divergent path, and the eccentricity of that is that HH still has a Mortar you paid for, but for which a third-party is compensating you.

By rights, HH should send it to FW, if anyone. If you had it in hand, then you should have sent it to FW with the rest of the models.

Had to WAITED, COMMUNICATED, and acted appropriately HERE, then this wouldn't be an issue. As it is--it's wonky.
I am always in the market for weird and wonderful GW oddbitz and ephemera. PM me if you have something old/weird/rare.

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