BTR- BigbadBaz - Baz Wilson - Resolved without Baz

[redarmy27]

Hi all,

I recently fell victim to the trader BigBadBaz.
Coming to this forum I was excited to meet a group of honorable people to trade with. I posted the following ad:
[H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

"Postby redarmy27 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:23 pm
Hey all,

I'm currently in the market for a new army to pursue. While I do love my Warriors of Chaos army, and how I should really get them all painted and completed, I really have the hankering for going for a Dark Elf army after playing my buddy's a few time now and getting the chance to read through the book thoroughly now. My local event center used to have a ton of DE players, but now I'm looking like I'd possibly be the only one to play them...

Anyways, enough of me justifying buying another army.

I'm looking to spend $250-290 for an army and I do have paypal. I could go higher if I see a great deal for a nice, well-rounded army that I could grow into with some great options. I only do paypal.

All the best,

Jake"


I was told that for $240 including shipping, through paypal, I could receive the following:

Sorceress on Dark Pegasus
3 Sorcerers
BSB
50 Spearelves
30 Repeater Crossbowmen
7 Shades
Dark Elf Chariot
2 Hydras
Dark Elf Army Book
Large black GW carry case

The money was sent to him on August 17th, to the email baz.wilson@ymail.com, and was accepted at this address. I made the mistake of giving it to him as a gift, even though he mentioned going that way or including more money to cover the costs, as I had sent money to my brother for his birthday on the 14th and I mindlessly did it as a gift. If I could have, I would have hit the goods button, but I was doing the transaction on my iPhone.

After completing the transaction, I had not heard anything back from him since he sent me his email address. The following pm's have been sent to him once I found out that his email was no longer in use today.

So now I'm out $240 and quite pissed off. I know I should have looked for trade references, but I'm new here and expected people to be quite different, especially on my first transaction. I guess I'll have

(Sent to alternative address of BigBadBaz, abaddon106@hotmail.com, provided by thewarhammerforum.og.uk)

Hi Baz,

This is Redarmy27 from Bartertown. I’ve been made aware that the address you provided me, and accepted $240 for a Dark Elf Army through Paypal has been cancelled upon having emailed you in regards to the status of my Dark Elf Army’s shipment date. I have made Paypal aware of the situation and it is undergoing criminal investigation against you. I have notified Visa, the credit card company that my Paypal is through, of the situation and they are also initiating a criminal investigation against you.

I have tracked down the images that were submitted to the personal message that was provided to me and matched them with the IP address that is also used under BigBadBaz for thewarhammerforum.og.uk and it’s in correlation with this one. If the transaction is still under consideration then please let me know and all actions will be cancelled against you. However, I have been in contact with another member of Bartertown who has also been duped by you and they will as well be taking action against you.

Conducting activity in this manner is a serious offense. I work for the Minnesota Department of Revenue and I have full knowledge of tax and commerce codes/ laws and work closely with state governments as well as the federal government in stopping actions such as the one you’re committing from happening. What you are doing is wrong and unspeakable. If I could get my refund or the promised goods for my $240, then all action will cease against you. If not, proceedings will continue.

Jacob.

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:28 pm
by redarmy27
(Sent to alternative address of BigBadBaz, abaddon106@hotmail.com, provided by thewarhammerforum.og.uk)

Hi Baz,

This is Redarmy27 from Bartertown. I’ve been made aware that the address you provided me, and accepted $240 for a Dark Elf Army through Paypal has been cancelled upon having emailed you in regards to the status of my Dark Elf Army’s shipment date. I have made Paypal aware of the situation and it is undergoing criminal investigation against you. I have notified Visa, the credit card company that my Paypal is through, of the situation and they are also initiating a criminal investigation against you.

I have tracked down the images that were submitted to the personal message that was provided to me and matched them with the IP address that is also used under BigBadBaz for thewarhammerforum.og.uk and it’s in correlation with this one. If the transaction is still under consideration then please let me know and all actions will be cancelled against you. However, I have been in contact with another member of Bartertown who has also been duped by you and they will as well be taking action against you.

Conducting activity in this manner is a serious offense. I work for the Minnesota Department of Revenue and I have full knowledge of tax and commerce codes/ laws and work closely with state governments as well as the federal government in stopping actions such as the one you’re committing from happening. What you are doing is wrong and unspeakable. If I could get my refund or the promised goods for my $240, then all action will cease against you. If not, proceedings will continue.

Jacob.

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:33 pm
by redarmy27
Baz,

I was a bit alarmed to try and email you with the address that you provided for payment through payal when it was rejected stating that the email address is no longer in use. If there is an excuse behind this, I hope this is all one big miscommunication, but I'm beginning to feel I was taken for a spin.

I am now going to begin the dispute process with Paypal. If the army is there, I'd still like to get it for the amount I paid for, otherwise Paypal will give me my money back.

Again, if this is a misunderstanding, I apologize, but I would like an explanation for lack of communication as well as the sudden disconnect with the email you provided once you had received and accepted by payment via Paypal. I am aware that you have been active on the forum and receiving your PM's as they mark off as "checked" once you read them, along with the forum keeping track of your presence.

Concerned,

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:41 pm
by redarmy27
(Copy from email that was sent to your email address)

Hey Baz,

I made it back home in one piece over a certainly busy weekend. I hope yours went well!

I’m just looking to get a status update of the DE Elf army and if you’re shipping it out yet. I don’t mean to come off as *edit*-rentitive, but I’m just weary of transactions when there’s a delay in communication as I’ve been ripped off in the past. I know you’re probably just busy and such, but I just want to make sure.

I’ll be sending a copy of this to your Bartertown account as well for documentation.

Hope all is well and I hope to hear from you soon!

All the best,

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:18 am
by redarmy27
Sounds good!

I sent the money two days ago, just want to make sure you get it before I head out of town for a few days. Let me know when you plan/ ship out the army so I know when to be around to get it.

Have a great weekend! I'll check back here later to see if you respond.

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!
Sent: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:42 am
by redarmy27
Hey Baz,

Sounds good. I changed it as a gift and it's in your account right as we speak. Just let me know if there's anything else on my end.

Have a great one and just let me know when you get the little guys in the mail.

All the best,

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!
Sent: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:57 am
by BigBadBaz
Hi Jake,

My paypal address is:

baz.wilson@ymail.com

I dont know if you want to send it as a gift or add a few more $ to cover the fees??

Baz

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!
Sent: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:33 pm
by redarmy27
(Not sure if the other message went through, my iPhone has been acting up tonight!)

Hey Baz,

I've made up my mind, I'll take them!! I am PUMPED! Let me know what your paypal is and I'll get the $240 to you ASAP. Thanks for the quick responses and such as well!


All the best,

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:53 pm
by redarmy27
Hey Baz,

I've made up my mind, I'll take them!! I am PUMPED! Let me know what your paypal is and I'll get the $240 to you ASAP. Thanks for the quick responses and such as well!


All the best,

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:28 pm
by redarmy27
Sounds good, I'll look it over more tonight when I get home. Loooooong day at work. Thanks for getting those pics to me!

Jake

Re: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

Sent: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:14 am
by BigBadBaz
Subject: [H] Cash (Paypal), [W] Dark Elves!

redarmy27 wrote:

BigBadBaz wrote:HI Jake, Ive got a large Dark Elf army - all current edition (bar finecast) if your interested??

Mages, Spearmen, repeater crossbowmen, 2 hydras etc

let me know if your interested and ill get picture for you

Baz



Baz,

Sounds awesome! I'd love to see a picture as you may have just started to be the source of tears cascading down the faces of my WoC troops. Along with the pictures could you provide me with:
Unit Count
Proposed Price
Shipping Estimation to US Zip Code 55117?

Also, do you take Paypal?
Thanks!

Jake



Hi Jake,
Keep the messages to private as its easier

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What there is:

Sorceress on Dark Pegasus
3 Sorcerers
BSB
50 Spearelves
30 Repeater Crossbowmen
7 Shades
Dark Elf Chariot
2 Hydras
Dark Elf Army Book
Large black GW carry case

Some of the models are difficult to value as the 3 Sorcerers are long OOP.

The rest however comes to about $460.

Knock money off for 2nd hand etc and ill throw in free shipping for $240

How does that sound??

And yes ive got paypal

Baz

[redarmy27]

Received a further post from him today, a rather taunting one at that:

"Re: A bad trade reference has been posted about you from red

Sent: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:14 am
by BigBadBaz
Hi

I would like to thank you for your funds I have now booked my flights.

This will be my last correspondence



Cheers"

Clearly this guy does not care for anyone but himself. While he says he's booked his flights and such, my Visa has not been charged at all since the week and half of the transaction being "cleared". He could just be blowing smoke to get a rise out of me, but Visa is watching my account very closely to nail him if he does get the money.

I'm now out to make sure he never trades on any forum again.

Jake

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

It's not clear to me--are you out the money or not?

[MagickalMemories]

It's not clear to me--are you out the money or not?

Good question.
Considering, however, the nature of the last PM, I've locked Baz out of the forums. He can only see his PM's now, so no responding to ads or posting them.

Additionally, I've PMed him to see what's going on.

Eric

[redarmy27]

I will be if the funds get to him. Currently, Visa is seeing no charge, because Paypal could have intervened once he'd cancelled his account so fast. Visa said to watch out if he does and they'll dispute it once he takes money.

Paypal did give me the following receipt for the transaction:

Payment Sent (Unique Transaction ID # 2MT80864RH657052G)
Sent to:
Baz Wilson (The recipient of this payment is Non-U.S. - Unverified)
Email:
baz.wilson@ymail.com

Amount sent:
-$240.00 USD
Fee amount:
-$9.66 USD
Net amount:
-$249.66 USD

Date:
Aug 17, 2011
Time:
03:41:50 PDT
Status:
Completed

Subject:

You have sent $249.66 USD to Baz Wilson with PayPal
Note:

Hey Baz, Here's the amount owed for the Druchii. Thanks again for helping me organize this so quickly! All the best, Jake
Funding Type:
Credit Card
Funding Source:
$249.66 USD - Visa Card XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-****
This transaction will appear on your bill as "PAYPAL *BAZWILSON".

Again, I've received no charge yet for it, but Visa is watching this like a hawk. I've had assets in my account frozen until then.
For now, it's a waiting game.

Jake

[redarmy27]

The funds did get to him, had to check different section of statement. Bank/ Visa is on it now. Now completing paperwork with Internet Fraud. Still no response from him at all.

Jake

[redarmy27]

I went to my bank yesterday and told them that I had a problem and explained the whole situation. I brought full documentation of the arrangements and even him taunting me to prove that it was fraud. I was told to go to Paypal.

Normally Paypal won't do anything, especially if it's marked as a gift, but keep on them about it and provide all documentation. I went at Paypal like a bear last night and not only did they actually change it from a gift to a transaction, but Baz now has only 9 more days to either give me my funds back or the army. Regardless if he does or not, with either outcome, I get something back because Paypal will give me back my full amount if he never responds.

The key was that I had direct proof and documentation that it was a transaction since I put notes in the description when I sent him the funds. Plus, I also took all the correspondence from here as well so they have that proof. His ultimate nail in the coffin was him taunting me.

I told Paypal with the evidence of him taunting me and the definite indication of a transaction set to take place through the correspondence that was developed, if Paypal refund me, I was going to sue them as well as they'd be tools to the fraud activity.

Keeping notes on the transaction is important. We'll see what happens.

[kturock]

Good luck.
Paypal can only refund money that's in the account. If he removed it all, you're out the $.
It states it in the agreement. MM has posted this before.
Paypal only protects Paypal.

Also, you see the folly about listing it as a gift. You gave him the money. The money you saved him in fees, allowed him to steal from you.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

What did Visa say? A chargeback really isn't the uncommon.

[kturock]

He says in the 1st paragraph, he went to his bank, who I belive is his Visa card issuer, and they said, go to Paypal.

That's common for banks & charge card companies. They pay Paypal, Paypal pays the other party.

So it's between Paypa and him.

Like I said; good luck.

Been there. Done That. Got screwed. Paypal did nada.

It's been posted before here.

[MagickalMemories]

Good luck.
Paypal can only refund money that's in the account. If he removed it all, you're out the $.
It states it in the agreement. MM has posted this before.
Paypal only protects Paypal.

Also, you see the folly about listing it as a gift. You gave him the money. The money you saved him in fees, allowed him to steal from you.

Actually, Red and I communicated a bit last night.
(Red, BTW... I'm glad the advice helped.)

In one of the TOS's (they've got 2, depending on what it's about), it states that they have the right to go into your attached account to retrieve the money.
...they just (almost) never do.

Basically, what happened was that Red had to force PayPal to decide who they wanted to fight with. If they go after Baz's bank, they've got to fight them for the money. This can usually be done amicably, as the bank is in a much better place to retrieve their funds. It's a "professional relationship" kind of thing. On the other hand, Red's "the little guy" who will lawyer up (costing them legal fees) and it might go to court. If it goes to court, Red wins WELL more than Baz has taken, and a precedent is set, screwing them royally.
If they just "help Red out," then there is no legal precedent, and they can continue denying people's claims and refusing to go after the scammers' bank accounts. It's more lucrative for them in the long run.

BTW, this is all my slightly cynical opinion. I can only draw on my limited knowledge of banking (my profession), law and common sense.

Eric

P.S. This should be a lesson... if you're sending money first, people, think LONG and HARD about who you're sending money to as a "Gift." I'm not advocating that you send trade funds as gifts EVER but, if you do, you should consider only sending it upon receipt of the items, unless your trade partner is EXTREMELY well rated.

[redarmy27]

Well sorry for the delay, but this has been resolved.

In the end, I got my money back through Paypal as Paypal is going after him through his bank. Charges are being put against him for fraud and such. Overall, this gentleman is terrible to deal with.

Always document everything in your transactions and be sure to put notes in the transactions through Paypal. This will greatly help your case!

Jake

[MagickalMemories]

Glad to hear you got your money back.
Closing this report & marking it as resolved.

Eric