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peacemystic ( 720 )
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Post by peacemystic » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:15 am

Jester,sorry Dude,but you might want to listen to the traders who have alittle more time put in on the site,because,your the one whos missing the point of this section.......Deadbeats and Backouts.
But i think Lin is going to throw a $%*&-fit when he see's all these posts, so i'm going to shut up now.
Cheers
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J35T3R.us ( 84 )
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Post by J35T3R.us » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:39 am

I just wanted to see some regulation perhaps to avaoid accusations expecially since no one likes being called a liar... =(
Last edited by J35T3R.us on Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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brettness37 ( 108 )
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Post by brettness37 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:52 am

I believe a deadbeat is someone who doesn't pay their tab, ei. "sure I'll buy your <lot>, I'll paypal you by the end of the week" and then no payment and no further communications.

getupandgo ( 786 )
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Post by getupandgo » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:20 am

jlong05 wrote:
nosirrahkcaz wrote:Im not sure I like this new forum, I hate people who never respond as much as the next person, but I see this turning into a place to call names and slander
Never responding is not the same thing. This is for those that agree to a trade, but never actually ship or pay. Its when neither party is out anything but time wasted, but an agreement was reached.

Or am I missing the boat for this new topic area?
If you're holding a trade, and expecting a package, you ARE indeed out something. You are out the ability to trade those items while you're waiting for someone who has a lack of respect for the terms and conditions that you agreed upon.

If you agree to a trade, that is a contract. You abide by that contract. If one party doesn't fulfill their end, that's a breech of the contract.

Now, granted we're not talking the end of the world here in many cases, but I've had at least 5 or 6 traders agree to a trade, who were supposed to send first, who just stopped responding to PMs after we agreed to the trade and I sent them my address. If they are doing this to multiple people, it creates a pattern that lets people know that they are simply not reliable, and to not waste your time with them..

The regular rules apply, you must provide proof, in the form of PMs or email, you can't just randomly say things about a trader with no proof to back it up. I fail to see how this forum will be one that will degenerate into a place where people name-call and slander.

This forum is very much needed and appreciated.
Always ship with delivery confirmation, I do the same.

Rating of less than 100 (or with no known traders)? You ship first (for trades and purchases), otherwise, we can ship simultaneously.

YOU must ship your package; not your wife, friend, lover, cousin, or dog. If you are not able to ship packages yourself, then please don't work out a deal with me.

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Ministry of Nerd ( 156 )
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Post by Ministry of Nerd » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:40 am

getupandgo wrote:
If you're holding a trade, and expecting a package, you ARE indeed out something. You are out the ability to trade those items while you're waiting for someone who has a lack of respect for the terms and conditions that you agreed upon.
Opportunity Cost is the term everyone's looking for.
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Saves everyone a lot of time.

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Plarz ( 338 )
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Post by Plarz » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:44 am

Aye, Opportunity cost is correct. I have communication ultimatums up for two people right now, and if I don't hear from them within the reasonable time limit I've given them, I'll be happy to be the first one to post in this forum.

For me, once a deal has been reached, and communication stops entirely, I'll give benefit of the doubt for about a month. Stuff happens, and statistically it happens in sets of three. (Watch the next time a celebrity dies - two more will follow within a week or so.) I totally understand stuff comes up, but after a month it's very hard to believe that a person doesn't have 2 minutes to pop on and say 'Stuff has happened, and I have to cancel. Sorry.'

I try my best to communicate, and I expect others to do so as well. I mean, after all, you should be excited about it! You're buying new stuff, or you're getting money for some of your junk, you should be checking your mail every 10 minutes, super excited! How can you just drop off the face of the earth?

In this day and age, bad communication is inexcusable, and yet inevitable, which is sadly why this forum is needed.

/vote yes to Deadbeats & Backouts

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insidius ( 76 )
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Post by insidius » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:10 am

I'm just unsure of the intent of this particular forum.

Sure, ok, backed out traders.

But how many people, upon seeing a good deal for something they've been in the market for, are going to refuse a trade with someone simply because they backed out of a deal with another trader in the past and was called out on it here?

What is the purpose of this forum really, except to incite more unwanted drama here?


I just think it's gone too far, and I knew (and stated such) we'd be heading down a dark road back when 'we' first decided that backing out of a trade was punishable by a BTR and/or neg. feedback. I hold to that assessment and this is only the next step.

Oh, well. My job is to enforce the rules, not make them.
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Post by Adunaphel » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:14 pm

When is a trade final?
It is a rhetorical question.

How many answers to that question are there here?
Especially when you consider the myriad of ways that you can say yes or no to a deal.

Yes, I know what the RULEZ say. And I know where everyone is coming from.

Let me put some reality to it, though.
I have worked as a contractor for a long time.
I have watched contractors spend hard-earned money to take "deadbeats" to court after a SIGNED contract had been reneged on. And lose in a court of law. One of them I knew was even countersued for defamation of character. And both suits were thrown out.
I have watched many of my own contracts that were signed only to get a call that the signee had "found another contractor".
Yes, I know that I could've gotten a lawyer. But, I have learned that even for the courts and lawyers the idea of backing out is a fairly subjective matter and open to quite a bit of interpretation.

By all means, nail the guys who won't "honor their agreement". I am ALL for it. But, if the back-out threads that I have seen are any indication of what we are in for, then we all should try to get a little better at our communication skills. I have seen that popular opinion is certainly in favor of the accuser and not the accused. We should be careful that we don't take it too far. Just a word of caution. A one line affirmation of trade like, "Ok, we can do this" is really quite flimsy ground for the accuser to stand on. I know that right now it is enough because we are hell-bent with righteous fury to punish the deadbeats, but traders should think about how their thread looks before they post it here.

I hope this works out the way "us good guys" want it to. I just forsee an unmitigated mess.

Karl
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"You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."

MagickalMemories ( 826 )
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Post by MagickalMemories » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:19 pm

insidius wrote:I'm just unsure of the intent of this particular forum.

Sure, ok, backed out traders.

But how many people, upon seeing a good deal for something they've been in the market for, are going to refuse a trade with someone simply because they backed out of a deal with another trader in the past and was called out on it here?

What is the purpose of this forum really, except to incite more unwanted drama here?


I just think it's gone too far, and I knew (and stated such) we'd be heading down a dark road back when 'we' first decided that backing out of a trade was punishable by a BTR and/or neg. feedback. I hold to that assessment and this is only the next step.

Oh, well. My job is to enforce the rules, not make them.

The purpose is to have a place to post your proof to support why you left the guy a negative reference... unless I've missed the mark.

There was talk in the BTR forum about how the "backout" posts were taking over and how, though it was a bad trade practice, it wasn't the kind of thing that put them in the same boat as the Ticknors and Drop Zones of the trading world. this forum was created so that, if you leave someone a neg ref for backing out of an agreed upon trade, you can post the PM/email string here so that the people are not stuck in the Bad Trader forum with the REAL bad guys.

You're right. Most traders aren't going to hold it against someoe if they have a thread here about them... but if they hit 2 or 3, people will wonder.


As you know, it's a known tactic of scammers to try to get people to simu-ship or ship first (for whatever reason they can come up with). If they agree to a deal, but can't get the other trader to do that, they "change their mind."

Excessive "mind changing" is a definite warning flag.

We've seen it in the past (those BTR threads are lost, though) that a few traders have had a BTR on them, only for other traders to later pop in the thread about how they were going to deal with the guy until he refused to ship first & wanted a simu-ship.

I can think of 3:
Ticknor
Gester
"Steve Jones"


It's a "fair warning" type of forum, I guess, that I think has definite benefit.


Wow. Weird. One of the few times we weren't of like mind on a subject.


Eric
Lower rating? You ship first.

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I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

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Anglacon ( 40 )
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Post by Anglacon » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:44 pm

Just out of curiosity, what recourse does a person have when they say "I would like to get your army" in a PM, then find out more info and cancel, only to be dragged through the mud to be pelted by the peasents with rotten veggies in this very public forum?

I think this is a BAD road to be traveling down. The only reason is that the wrongdoing is subjective and will vary from person to person.

If someone tells me "Hey, i changed my mind on getting your army, sorry" that is fine, and I wont bat an eye. It appears, however, that others here would get out the pitchforks and torches!

Where is the line drawn? When addresses are exchanged? When the deal is struck? When you inquire about the trade?
Do extenuating circumstances come into play? A forgotten car payment, medical emergency or even a death in the family?

If you steal from someone, be it money or figs, that is black and white, cut and dry. This forum is colored in shades of gray.
It is subjective at best, draconian at worst.

Will the next forum be for slow shippers? People who send cat hair with the figs? Improper packers? Just asking, because that seems to be the direction the masses want to go...

-Anglacon

p.s.- Just my .02, I hope no one takes offence.
Image

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eengaming ( 58 )
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Post by eengaming » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:05 pm

For my two cents I have to agree with Insidious and Angalcon, I think this is the road to more drama, not less.

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Post by CypherIsGod » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:03 pm

I have been leery of posting here just because I agree that Lin may not have wanted this conversation to take place in his announcement, but since it's gotten this far, I might as well add on.

I don't think this forum is here to try and create or try and quell any "drama" on the site. The whole point is to protect traders. I don't see how so many people have an issue with that. If I go and post something about someone in the Bad Trader forum (or here, now) and it is out of line, the mods will delete the thread and I will most likely get a little vacation. If I post something and it is all legit, then the thread stays for all to see. It's not going to turn into a witch hunt because of the rules.

I wonder if those of you with aversions to backouts being brought up as bad have ever really been affected by one. I'll tell you my semi-quick story about how it definitely did cause me some harm.
I had 2 trades come up at about the same time. One was trading a book for the Hero 5th edition RPG. I was starting a Hero campaign and obviously needed the book. I was happy to find a trade because it's better than spending $50 when I can trade away something less useful to me. I had $75 in store credit at my local gaming store, but if I could keep it for something else, all the better.
Then I entered into a trade for a Tomb Kings army. I've always thought they were cool and was looking forward to adding the army to my collection. Now, since I had that $75 store credit burning a hole, I bought some additional Tomb Kings items with it.
Well, the Hero 5th edition book never made it to me and the trader for the Tomb Kings army backed out without a single reply to me. So, I then had to go spend cash for the RPG book I needed and also have a couple of Tomb Kings items sitting on my shelf with no actual army to add them to.
Maybe I should not have counted my chickens before they hatched, but I had deals for both items and they both fell through without responses.
So, when you think backouts don't cause anyone harm, just remember that they may not have caused YOU harm, but others are not quite as fortunate.
Please do not agree to a trade with me unless you know for sure that you actually want it to happen! If you think that makes me a jerk, feel free to NOT TRADE WITH ME!
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J35T3R.us ( 84 )
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Post by J35T3R.us » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:23 pm

Image

Not gonna quote a bunch of people because everyone is saying one(or more) of the following four things:

1) This thread is not needed
2) This thread is needed
3) What is the point of this thread
4) This thread is going to lead to bad stuff

In response:
1) This thread IS in deed needed, but not ALONE... It needs to be coupled with a few more threads, or hell, a bunch of "warning-type" threads all combined into one big: "Watch out for so and so" thread... Aka... The bad trader forum....

2) See #1... Its needed indeed, but along with it being needed are threads like: "Deadbeats & Backouts" "Lowballers" "Asshats" "Newbies" ect ect... Don't use those names, just use their ideals...

3) The point of this thread (in Lin's essence) is to warn people of people that have backed out of trades with others before. In that case when dealing with these people in the future, you'd want to make them send first and give them a deadline(reasonable) and do everything possible to push them into sealing the deal and doing their end. If they mess up again, and find their name in this thread two times? three times? Pretty sure there will be disiplinary action taken.

4) Of course this thread is going to lead to arguements... Hell, look at what the damned "FAQ/Help/Rules/WTF-ever-this-post-is" has lead to and there isn't evena single post in here yet!!! Yeah, people don't like being called on stuff. But it needs to be done sometimes. However I still say it needs to be regulated somehow... Having proof? Giving a bad ref? Yeah, all things you can do, but putting that person on the spot and perhaps eliminating their chances at ever trading here again because you had one bad trade with them? Not cool... And if people just ignore the people on this list and trade anyways, what is the use? Anyways...


All in all:

1) & 2) Thread is needed, but under two conditions:
a) Defined RULES set and CONSEQUENCES set for people posting and posted here.
b) More threads made that relate to "bad trading HABITS" not bad traders, but just bad habits... Calling people on them to let people know what is going on, backing out of a trade is one problem out of 10 to watch out for... What about those other 10?

3) The point of this thread is self explained, Dictionary.com "Deadbeat" and just assume you know what "backing out" means.

4)Sure there will be arguements, but that's life. My advice? Don't SEAL a deal unless you're ready to do it... Don't back out of a trade and you won't end up here.




~Jest


ADDENDUM: What pisses off most people is backing out of a trade by SILENCE, not by saying "Sorry, can't do the trade now" sure they're gonna be mad either way, but up and telling them you are backing out will score you more brownie points than simply ignoring them for a couple weeks then finally replying with: "Oh yeah, I didn't want to do that." Or just never replying again...





PS: All of the above are my personal opinions and not stated facts, feel free to disagree with them, I was just trying to consolodate... Personally I feel this thread should wiped clean of all these useless replies and left to clean state with a simple sticky declaring what this forum is for, who can use, why to use, what the rules are, what you can say and reply, and what the consequences are. As far as I am concerned, it is one of MANY threads needed, but until all the treads are posted in one big: "Watch Out for So and So" thread, this one needs to be stowed... I forsee a lot of off-topic posts, flame-fests, and well, god-help the first 1 or 2 souls posted here... Anyways, peace!

*poof*
Last edited by J35T3R.us on Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MagickalMemories ( 826 )
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Post by MagickalMemories » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:23 pm

Anglacon wrote:Just out of curiosity, what recourse does a person have when they say "I would like to get your army" in a PM, then find out more info and cancel, only to be dragged through the mud to be pelted by the peasents with rotten veggies in this very public forum?
I can see your concern, but I think you're making it bigger than it is. It's not about inquiry back outs. It's about backing out after an agreement is made.
Your example is a clear inquiry.

J35T3R.us wrote:All in all:

1) & 2) Thread is needed, but under two conditions:


I disagree on these 2.
We don't need to micromanage. The last thing we need is a "rude people" thread, a "slow shipping" thread, a "lowballers" thread. None of those affect -or potentially affect- the safety and security of traders on this site.
That's what this forum and the Bad Traders forum are for.
They're not about complaining. they're about warning others of dishonest, behavior and the warning signs that often lead to it.


I think your #3 is dead on (though I'm not certain about disciplinary action).

As for 4... LOL ALL threads lead to arguments. : )

J35T3R.us wrote:Personally I feel this thread should wiped clean of all these <not smart> replies and left to clean state
RESPECTFULLY, I would like to ask you not to use that word, especially in such a manner. I am assuming you didn't mean it offensively, and don't realize how offensive it is, so no harm, no foul. For what it's worth, however, that word is highly insulting, blisteringly offensive and causes no small amount of anger in those of us who have a friend or family member who is mentally challenged. Thank you.

Eric

P.S. I honestly don't think Lin will be upset. I'll be surprised if I'm wrong. It's threads like this, which is staying cordial and respectful, that help us iron out differences, as well as helping the Amdin & Mods to decide on site policies & procedures.
Lower rating? You ship first.

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


I think what this situation needs is some imagination.

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Post by J35T3R.us » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:39 pm

J35T3R.us wrote:Personally I feel this thread should wiped clean of all these <not smart> replies and left to clean state
MagickalMemories wrote:For what it's worth, however, that word is highly insulting, blisteringly offensive and causes no small amount of anger in those of us who have a friend or family member who is mentally challenged.
Your reply was your OPINION. I or others may find it insulting you'd assume I(or anyone) would find this word insulting WHEN USED PROPERLY reguardless if I(or they) do or don't have a "disabled" relative... That would be making their decision for them. Now, if I offended YOU, then, sorry. But I do feel that making the choice for everyone by saying they'd all be offended is quite wrong. But again, for the third time, I will state that I did not intend on insulting anyone if they found offense to my word choice(again, I edited my post to reflect this). Same goes for the word: "gay." If my brother's gay, and someone says: "That car is gay." I don't find that offending because I've accepted the evolution of the English language and it's slangs. Although, I was not using the "slang-term" of the word "<not smart>" here. Same still goes. I did just compare apples to oranges since one was being used offensively, and MY WORD was being used to describe something, but you get my drift I hope.
Dictionary.com wrote:<not smart> - To cause to move or proceed slowly; delay or impede.

or

<not smart> - A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay.
I'm going to have to retort to this... I will not take that comment back because NO HARM was intended. The word <not smart> when using it offensively or in a rash manor would be "messed up." While indeed this thread is getting "messed up" quite quickly, I did not use it in that manor. I used it simply as it was intended by myself to mean we are impeding the process of this thread. I will however admit to most(in this mordern age) a lot of megativity is associated with that word and that I apologize if I offended anyone using my relitively vast knowledge of synonyms (not counting of course my years of internet-learned typonese, most of which people of the internet should be able to read through anyways). I will remove that word from my previous post as soon as I am done writing this reply and I will refriegn from using such words that may be wrongly interpreted in the future. Anyways, onto the meat and potatoes.

MagickalMemories wrote:
J35T3R.us wrote:All in all:

1) & 2) Thread is needed, but under two conditions:


I disagree on these 2.
We don't need to micromanage. The last thing we need is a "rude people" thread, a "slow shipping" thread, a "lowballers" thread. None of those affect -or potentially affect- the safety and security of traders on this site.
That's what this forum and the Bad Traders forum are for.
They're not about complaining. they're about warning others of dishonest, behavior and the warning signs that often lead to it.
You just said: We don't need multiple threads... Yet you say people in this thread will use it to "warn others of dishonest behavior" yet you don't think we need a place to "warn of OTHER dishonest behavior than JUST backing out?"

I'm pretty sure that warning like:

1)

"This person told me these paint jobs were nicely painted to a table-top standard, and when I recieved them, they weren't that good."

The above example would demostrate that one person's "paint standards" are off compared to another's. Someone says the paintjob is a 4 out of 10, another says it is a 6 out of 10... They are not a bad trader, Table-top paintjob = anywhere from 3-7 out of 10... But someone would at least expect a 6 out of 10 or so. The above person should not be IN TROUBLE< they should just be known that their paint-job grading standard is prolly higher than other people's. Perhaps this will allow people to demand pictures or consult with others to figure out just what standard the figures in the next trades are.

...would be a great warning. ---> I'd ask to see pictures before trading with the guy in question.

I'm pretty sure that warning like:

2)

"This person has sent me 2 offers in the past 2 weeks. One was on my warmachine lot, one one on my mage knight lot. The warmachine retails for $80 and I had it for sale for $50. He offered $30 shipped. I counter-offered saying it was already low for $50, but I would go $45 for him. He then counter-offered with e-bay prices not-including shipping and said $35 shipped... He's a lowballer. Also would mention the lowball offer on the MageKnight, but you get my drift."

The above example shows a lowballer, which would be brought into attention to not waste your time looking at this person's "WANT LIST" since you won't be getting anything but lowballs from them. DO NOT SAY THIS is not directly ON PAR with what we are talking about... Becaquse seriously guys, we aren't talking about people backing out of transactions... We're talking about people RUINING THE TRADING EXPERIENCE OF THESE BOARDS... Why limit our accusations to simply backouts??? When that is most likely only 20% of claims? (made up number, don't hold me to it).

...would be a great warning. I'm pretty sure I would avoid or at least EXPECT lowball offers from the person in question and not both clicking on his: "WANT TO BUY WARHAMMER FANTASY" thread.



I'm pretty sure a warning like:

3)

"This guy named <asdfasdf> backed out of this trade, here is the proof, don't waste your time with this guy. I've seen his name in this thread before..."

Another example that belongs in the GIANT thread of "WARNINGS" not JUST "Backouts..."

...would be a great warning. ---> I'd love to know if someone has backed out once or twice, maybe three times since the've beena member here.


ANY of those above replies in a "watch out for this guy" thread would be acceptable... I'm trying to get across that backouts are not the sole-reason some of our angry members are angry... There needs to be more threads, or ONE BIG thread that resembles the "Bad Traders" forum, but not as serious, that all of our complaints can fall under.

"Bat Trader" = DO NOT TRADE WITH HIM.... NO ONE TRADE WITH HIM... IN FACT HE'S PROLLY GONNA GET BANNED IF HE'S IN THIS THREAD...

"Warning Thread" = THIS WAS MY EXPERIENCE WITH THIS PERSON AND WHY I WILL NOT BOTHER WITH HIM AGAIN ------- even though you may still deal with him.

MagickalMemories wrote: I think your #3 is dead on (though I'm not certain about disciplinary action).
Then what happens when someone says: "This guy backed out," and presents his evidence. This gets some attention and someone in a current trade with the guy in question decides to cancel his trade with him. The guy in question sees this topic and replies. The guy in question says: "We agreed to back out." Then presents his evidence as defense. Meantime the guy that was gonna trade with the guy in quest makes another deal with someone else with the stuff that the guy in question wanted... People agree that they mutually backed out based on the info in the thread. Where does that leave us? A guy who called wolf, a guy with a tarnished name, and a guy that LOST A TRADE because someone accused him of something and another trader saw his accusation and did the RIGHT THING, the SAFE THING and backed out of a current deal with the guy in question, even though the guy in question was COMPLETELY INNOCENT. So what can we do to compensate for his loss? What can we do to make sure people aren't whistle blowing and wolf-crying... You see where I am going with this. Without rule there will be chaos. There needs to be rules... And if you say "The rules are listed here:" and give me the "Bad Trader" rules... THAT DOES NOT HELP... If the offense falls under the "bad trader" rules, teh person is a B A D T R A D E R and does NOT belong here, they belong in teh BAD TRADER forum...
MagickalMemories wrote: As for 4... LOL ALL threads lead to arguments. :)


Again, why there needs to be rules.

Guy A) "This guy backed out of this deal we had."
Guy B) "Ummmm, no... You backed out."
Guy A) "Lol, here's my proof."
Guy B) "Lol, so? Here's mine."
Guy A) "Flame Flame" <-----Optional (of course it won't get that far, but you know no-one likes to be called a liar, and that's when tempers flare).
Guy B) "Flame Flame Back" <------Optional (retaliatory strikes inreguards to the initial flame is bound to happen).
Observer A) "Wtf is going on here???"
Observer B) "LOL @ This thread."
Observer C) "Hey, you guys watch that Bulls vs Celtics game last night?"
Admin A) "Banned, Banned, Banned, and.... Banned..."

YAY for lame-fest... Without order, there shall be chaos...

MagickalMemories wrote: It's threads like this, which is staying cordial and respectful, that help us iron out differences, as well as helping the Admin & Mods to decide on site policies & procedures.
/agree completely... aka: making rules for this forum...

-Jest
Last edited by J35T3R.us on Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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