I contacted Byte in response to an ad he posted asking if he would be interested in a Dreamforge Leviathan Crusader mini in exchange for some of his items. After an admittedly biased initial offer on my part, we played a game of "you go low and I'll go high" until eventually we came to a compromise. He tacitly consented to ship first in accordance with the implicit and unwritten rule of "lowest ships first" and the explicit and written terms in my signature.
He says he will ship on Monday June 22nd. He PMs that day and says he could not make it to the PO. Fair enough. The next day he says that he has to regrettably has to cancel the trade. I PM him back and ask him if he understand what canceling the trade means in terms of posting a Back Out Report and ask for details (hoping that it was something that we could work out to preserve this trade that has eaten up quite a bit of my free time). He responds with some details about "lung disease and treatment" and seems ok with having a Back Out Report posted. I was skeptical about the excuse and sudden termination after so much hard work hammering out a deal and PMed him back saying that I didn't buy it. While expressing sympathy, I was not a tender and compassionate as I could have been in my tone, but I wanted to point out some holes in his story.
What came back through the tubes was a stream of personal attacks and vitriol that seems to be Mr. Cortez's historically preferred method of dealing with adversity. All constructive communication broke down at this point.
Conclusion:
I am not sure what precisely transpired on Byte's end to cause him to cancel the trade but I am sure that his health status was not at the root. I am unable to conceive of someone so unexpectedly hobbled that they are unable to tape up a box and arrange for its delivery and yet are fully able to PM and conduct other trades. I believe that Byte is fully able to complete the trade but is unwilling to do so.
Original post:
Subject: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Paypal
Byte wrote:
My cap is 45% off retail and that's for $200 or more(with exceptions. Please don't offer 50% or more off retail, I don't have junk and your wasting my time. Check ebay and buy toy soldiers there. Next ridicules offer I get I'll post up as an example of what not to do.
30% off retail unless marked otherwise, Priority to orders over $100, I'll ship. USA only, Maybe Canada but you pay for shipping and please don't complain on how long it takes to get to you(I've had good luck so far).
Thinning the herd.
Dark Eldar
1 Partially assembled Ravager
1 Partially assembled Raider
1 NIB Raider
2 NIB Raider/Ravagers
20 warriors(1 unit still NIB)
1 NIB Wyches
Crons:
6 assembled Wraiths (pending)
3 Tomb Spiders (2 Spyders Pending)
7 Night Scythes 2 or 3 can be Doom Scythes (1 Scythe pending)
Anni barges and command barges - ask
Monolith (40% of retail)
Space Marines:
NIB Centurions
Super Heavy:
Storm Lord assembled bare plastic
Bane Blade Assembled bare plastic (pending)
Tau:
Full Farsight Bomb
Resin Farsight (recast? but looks GREAT) unassembled
7 suits but have 9 Crisis suits with fusion and plasma (converted to have gun arms, nice really nice) bare plastic
IG/AM
Chimeras... lots of them 8 to 10 a couple of them had their firing ports bored out...
2 Forgeworld Manticores
20+ Steel Legion guard including heavies and specials
Chaos Space marines 40% off retail
Term Lib needs stripped
10 Chaos marines primed
***9 old school OOP Noise Marines metal the ones with the tongues and rocking out. $50
Metal Daemon Prince with converted wings. Bare
18 Chaos spawn painted and assembled super nice from the guy from Sabal (30% retail in one lot)
Please PM any comments/inquiries, I will not be posting any responses in this thread as it would undoubtedly get locked. If you do post here I will just PM you. I will update the thread as necessary. I'll be posting and adding stuff every 7 days until I get bored of it. I like to buy not sell.
Serious inquires only please, no tire kickers.
Complete PM history in chronological order:
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:23 pm
by vurumai
Would you be interested is trading for a Dreamforge Leviathan and accessories? Let me know and I can put an offer together.
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:10 pm
by Byte
Yes I would be interested in that. Thank you.
-Pat
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:41 pm
by Byte
Any update?
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:12 pm
by vurumai
Sorry, I was working and driving a lot the last few days.
I would trade the Leviathan Crusader armed with Vulkan cannon and sword with optional Beowulf artillery and ripper saw and capacitor cooler. (Retail for $205) for:
Crons:
1 Tomb Spiders (Assuming it is the new plastic)
3x Night Scythes 2 or 3 can be Doom Scythes (1 Scythe pending)
Monolith (40% of retail)
Space Marines:
NIB Centurions
Super Heavy:
Storm Lord assembled bare plastic
Let me know
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:48 pm
by Byte
Seems a little lopsided in your favor, and the cents are gone. Sorry. Trade value should be based on my asking price, Seems thats what you did.
Thanks for your interest.
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:25 am
by Byte
Cents are gone, yes spyders are current(2 gone)
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:23 am
by vurumai
NIB models don't trade at the same value as assembled, painted and incomplete minis. I usually value them at 50% retail. Let me show you how I determine trade value.
How about this:
I would trade the Leviathan Crusader armed with Vulkan cannon and sword with optional Beowulf artillery and ripper saw and capacitor cooler. (Retail for $205) for:
Crons:
1 Tomb Spiders 33*1*0.5=16.5
4x Night Scythes (with as many that can be Doom Scythes) 45*4*.5=90
Monolith (40% of retail) 66*1*0.4=26
Super Heavy:
Storm Lord assembled bare plastic 140*1*.5=70
Total trade value is 202.
Let me know
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:32 am
by Byte
No Thanks.
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:57 pm
by vurumai
What would you consider a fair offer?
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:15 am
by Byte
The issue is you expected to trade at retail on your end. Dreamforge has Crusaders on sale for $88 dollars right now and I've have seen them for lower sometimes during their sales, however I do like the model more than I need these crons. I already have one with a few arms so I know the deal.
I not even sure if your model is NIB or not?
So I'll figure a trade value on your end at 20% off retail if NIB, so $161.
Spyder 45% off retail = $18.50
4 Scythes 40% off retail = $108
Monolith 45% off retail = $36
= $162.5
Thoughts?
I have a lot more crons btw if you have more to trade and are looking for something.
Thanks for working through this.
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:22 am
by vurumai
I understand what you are saying. The Leviathan is NIB and complete. While it is on sale now, it is not always. Regardless of sale prices, you would still need to pay shipping regardless of where you buy it which is not a factor with 40k models. Thus, I feel pretty good about comparing it at full retail value.
I feel like we can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement with a little work. I am fine adjusting my expectations down in order to make a deal.
NIB Leviathan Crusader armed with Vulkan cannon and sword with optional Beowulf artillery and ripper saw and capacitor cooler. (Retail for $205) for:
1 Tomb Spiders 33*1*0.6=20
4x Night Scythes (with as many that can be Doom Scythes) 45*4*0.6=108
Super Heavy:
Storm Lord assembled bare plastic 140*1*0.6=84
Total $212
Let me know what you think.
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:37 pm
by Byte
I just cant bring myself to trade for full retail.
Let me give this some thought. Thank you for considering my trade value.
-Pat
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:59 pm
by vurumai
You can work the math however you want. Valuing the Levithan at 100% and your minis at 60% work out to be the same as valuing the Leviathan at 80% and your minis at 40%. Think of it however you want but I want you to feel like it is an even trade.
I am happy to compromise and meet you in the middle. If I dropped the Spyder our of the trade, would that make it easier for you?
Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$$Pa
Sent: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:14 pm
by Byte
I can do it with out sending the spyder. Somehow that makes it easier.
Whats your address? I going to PO tomorrow
Mine
Pat Cortez
[Admin Edit - Removed Street Address on 10/13/2016]
Norfolk, VA
23503
Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$
Sent: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:16 pm
by vurumai
***Address Redacted***
I'll ship when your items arrive.
Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:12 pm
by Byte
Your stuff did not make it out today. Sorry.
Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG W:$
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:44 pm
by Byte
Do to events and situation, I sincerely have to apologize for not being able to complete our trade.
Deeply sorry. I hope you understand. It was very pleasent to negotiate with you.
Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:57 pm
by vurumai
You understand that not completing a trade that you agreed to can result in a back out report? Do you have details about why you can't complete the trade?
(This is the last courteous PM that I received from him.)Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:10 pm
by Byte
If that's the route you wish to take I understand. Its a situation beyond my control and no I can't share the details its a bit personal. Health related.
I humbly apologized, if you need to write a report please add that my lung disease and treatment is a big contributing factor.
(Granted this is kind of a heartless reply but something seemed fishy about his excuse. At this point I started work on this Back Out Report assuming that we had come to an impasse. I received the next two PMs in quick succession.)Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:31 pm
by vurumai
I don't really see how health problems prevent you from mailing something. It is not "a route I wish to take" and more the consequences of agreeing to a trade then backing out. Friends and family could help if you are incapacitated. I also see that you are active on this site including posting on several other trade threads so I am not really buying the excuse. Sorry for your health problems but a back out is a back out.
(A real 180 in tone. I read back through my albeit callous previous PM but could find no spitting in faces, judging, calling people liars, arrogance. I am still not seeing any reasons that would necessitate canceling a trade and none were offered. Nothing appeared to have changed in the last 48 hours. I can't say for sure, but I am unaware of respiratory diseases that come on in 48 hours unexpectedly and completely incapacitate someone with no hope of recovery. Before I could reply, I get another PM.)Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:01 pm
by Byte
Dont judge me pal. I was honest with you and you spit in my face?
Im in the military and currently "sick in quarters" I live away from family, and my wife has had 2 heart attacks and doesnt get around well.
I'm active on the forums because paypal isn't that taxing.
Post up you critique but dont call me a liar. Im a 42 year old 25 year veteran Naval Officer that has been ground down by years of exposure defending arrogant individuals like you. If you dont understand going through hard health times, than I hope you never do.
Quite honestly I could literally care less what you post. Your a piece of work man. Got all the answer dont you.
(I can see that someone with respiratory disease could have a hard time getting to the post office in hot weather. What I don't see is a reason how some hot days means that he will never be able to get to Post Office. USPS, FedEx and UPS all have home pick up options to my knowledge. In addition, there are two post offices within two miles of his residence.)Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:06 pm
by Byte
Im actually glad I couldnt take the heat and humidity outside, look it up it was the hottest day of the year in Virginia and it made me really sick.
Your lack of compassion and arrogant approach is disturbing.
(As a matter of record, I looked up weather from June in Norfolk, Va. It was hot and humid (High 80s and humidity in the 70% area). Hottest day was on the 16th of June, a week before by 2 degrees. I still fail to see how a hot day means a canceled trade.)
(I know, I should have just walked away but I wanted confirmation that he was backing out. Maybe it was also one last chance for him to turn things around. I also should have said specifically that I was starting a post at this point but I think it was implied.)Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:08 pm
by vurumai
Kind of a needlessly spicy reply. I don't think I was judging you. It was more like saying that your excuse seems flimsy. I'll take that as confirmation that you do not wish to complete the agreed upon trade.
I'll send you a link to the post when it is finished.
(I actually was not going to post the BOR until the vitriol and personal attacks started flying assuming he had some sort of reasonable excuse for backing out of the trade. I am not sure what he expected towards the end. I guess 4 days of negotiation and compromise and the refusal to give into pity makes me a tool. Really glad I did not ship at the same time or first.)Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:11 pm
by Byte
Don't bother sending a link, I couldn't care any less on what you have to say.
At this point I consider not being able to trade with you a dodged bullet. Your a tool.
Re:Re:Re: H:DE Necrons Cents CSM Stormlord farsight bomb IG
Sent: Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:46 am
From: vurumai(420)
To: Byte
A Back Out Report is less what I have to say but more a record of what we said to each other. It helps other BTers know what they are getting into should similar events happen in the future.
I am required to tell you that I have finished the Back Out Report in accordance with the rules here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=121402
A courtesy PM saying that you are filing a Backout Report should be sent prior to opening a Backout Report.
link
I am genuinely sorry that it came to this. It would have been my preference to conduct our trade completely and professionally.
Links to posts where Byte is active on the day trade was canceled:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=259971&p=475857#p475857 Not sure what he is doing here.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=259718&p=475932#p475932 Clearly engaged in trading/buying.