I made a deal with another individual (it is my understanding that posts here do not require IDs) with a 120+ rating. His was/is lower than mine, but given that we both had ratings above 100, I figured a simulship was fine. He agreed on Sept. 7, that we would both ship in the morning.
I emailed him the DC number and asked several times over then next week whether or not he shipped. He ignored me until my items arrived, then shipped his. I am particularly upset because of 2 reasons:
a. He agreed to ship at the same time, when I was fully justified in making him ship first; then he didn't do it.
b. He doesn't even have the courtesy to tell me that he was refusing to ship.
It would be one thing if he was a noob or even if he had just told me upon my questioning that he had been delayed and didn't ship yet.
Obviously, I want to get positive feedback for fulfilling my side of the bargain, but I feel that he has not earned any trust by lying to me. His items were as described, so according to the rules, I cannot leave him negative, but feel justified in leaving neutral.
Thoughts?
Grounds for a neutral feedback?
Moderator: Moderators
Grounds for a neutral feedback?
The production of useful work is limited by the laws of thermodynamics, but the production of useless work seems unlimited.
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ancientsociety ( 842 )
- Millenium Trader
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 2:46 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
You aren't out anything technically so you can't leave a neg ref. A good ref wouldn't be warranted with his (lack of) actions.
You're within the right to leave a neutral ref, as you both agreed to a simulship. He did not fulfill his end of the deal, therefore he gets the lower ref. Keep all the PMs and describe what happened in the ref.
You SHOULD receive a good ref and if he leaves you a neutral/neg ref in return, contact Lin or the mods as this is ITL retaliation.
Good luck!
You're within the right to leave a neutral ref, as you both agreed to a simulship. He did not fulfill his end of the deal, therefore he gets the lower ref. Keep all the PMs and describe what happened in the ref.
You SHOULD receive a good ref and if he leaves you a neutral/neg ref in return, contact Lin or the mods as this is ITL retaliation.
Good luck!
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.
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Morlock-Bloodletter ( 34 )
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2400
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 5:34 pm
- Location: Arizona
Well, I have a question.
Have you asked him since you received your items about what happened?
I have said this in a hidden mod only forum so I want to make it a bit more public.
Part of the trade process is the interaction between two or more people, that interaction is also available to be 'rated' (not berated heh) on as much as the other elements of the trade.
In this case, you feel you were lied to and are unhappy with the way this trade resolved, even though you are happy with the product.
The trade WAS completed and honored just as was expected by the ads themselves but was lacking in the communication and delivery aspects.
A neutral would be warranted by you.
However, by leaving the neutral you are opening yourself up with making the other user unhappy with the resolution and therefore could infact be left a neutral as well. You cannot demand 'good' feedback for any reason if the other party is not happy with any of the outcome.
The only thing the mods and admin can resolve in this matter is retalitory negative feedback or ITL intimidation of which neutral feedback does not fall into at this time.
Have you asked him since you received your items about what happened?
I have said this in a hidden mod only forum so I want to make it a bit more public.
Part of the trade process is the interaction between two or more people, that interaction is also available to be 'rated' (not berated heh) on as much as the other elements of the trade.
In this case, you feel you were lied to and are unhappy with the way this trade resolved, even though you are happy with the product.
The trade WAS completed and honored just as was expected by the ads themselves but was lacking in the communication and delivery aspects.
A neutral would be warranted by you.
However, by leaving the neutral you are opening yourself up with making the other user unhappy with the resolution and therefore could infact be left a neutral as well. You cannot demand 'good' feedback for any reason if the other party is not happy with any of the outcome.
The only thing the mods and admin can resolve in this matter is retalitory negative feedback or ITL intimidation of which neutral feedback does not fall into at this time.
Ok.. you both have 140 feedback rating. Seriously... what bearing is a +1 going to hold on both of you vs. a +2. I have broken several shipping date agreements due to LIFE. It's not like you waited weeks for your package. Did a few extra days really kill you? IMHO I think it was wrong for you to give the other party a neutral in the first place. A neutral feedback has no bearing on the Btown rules. If the other party wants to leave one in return, I say do it. His/her reasoning would be the way you handled a few day delay on something silly. Anything less than a positive feedback should be reserved for poorly handled practices on actual merchandise or constant excuses relating to extended delays in trades.
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Morlock-Bloodletter ( 34 )
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2400
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 5:34 pm
- Location: Arizona
Honestly Al, I think the problem was the lack of communication and that IS upsetting during a trade, especially when you are expecting to be treated the same as you are treating others (Ref: Golden Rule).
In this case, fibo decided that he was not being treated the same as he treated the unnamed user.
Not a matter of being late on shipping, a matter of not owning up to it? Unless I am misreading fibo post here.
In this case, fibo decided that he was not being treated the same as he treated the unnamed user.
Not a matter of being late on shipping, a matter of not owning up to it? Unless I am misreading fibo post here.
Perhaps. Without knowing major details, it's hard to from a solid opinion. I still would have left a positive in the first place just due to the fact of existing high trade ratings. Everybody has their hiccups. Even me.Morlock-Bloodletter wrote:Not a matter of being late on shipping, a matter of not owning up to it? Unless I am misreading fibo post here.
@Morlock
I attempted on 3 different occasions to get him to respond with anything. If he had told me at any time in that period that he had gotten delayed, I would have been perfectly fine with it. Delays happens, just be up front and honest about it.
@Alsiaie
The point is not the delay, nor is it the time. The point is, he made an agreement, then refused to communicate about it. Now, AFTER it is all said and done, he claims that he was going to make good on it by giving my positive feedback and additional models.
If he were going to send more models, he would have shipped them in the same box. If he were going to give me feedback for fulilling my end of the bargain, he would have done so when he recieved my models.
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I really don't care about the time. What I care about it, people with a 100+ rating are the ones that newbs tend to look to for cues on what is acceptable behaviour. Refusing to communicate, not answering any messages, then responding within 5 minutes when feedback is left is evidence to me that he recieved my messages and did not want to own up to his behaviour.
Honestly, if he had just apologized at that point, then I would have been willing to work out a deal to remove his neutral feedback (probably would have just done it), as the feedback was based on a complete lack of response. Instead, he attacks me personally in several very rude PMs. Given that, I feel that my neutral should stand. Additionally, since he states that he would have given me good feedback is proof that he was happy with everything in the trade except his feedback, thus him giving me a neutral would be retaliatory.
However, this is my opinion, and only the opinion of the admins matters in this situation, so they have been forwarded a complete log off all our communication.
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As a marginally amusing sidenote, another person whom I recently traded with, who had a 2 week delay in shipping, but kept me informed of the status just got positive feedback. Heck, I remember a time that I waited 2 months for an MO to arrive for some parts.
I must reiterate, the issue is not the delay, the issue is the complete lack of communication from someone who has been around long enough to know better.
I attempted on 3 different occasions to get him to respond with anything. If he had told me at any time in that period that he had gotten delayed, I would have been perfectly fine with it. Delays happens, just be up front and honest about it.
@Alsiaie
The point is not the delay, nor is it the time. The point is, he made an agreement, then refused to communicate about it. Now, AFTER it is all said and done, he claims that he was going to make good on it by giving my positive feedback and additional models.
If he were going to send more models, he would have shipped them in the same box. If he were going to give me feedback for fulilling my end of the bargain, he would have done so when he recieved my models.
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I really don't care about the time. What I care about it, people with a 100+ rating are the ones that newbs tend to look to for cues on what is acceptable behaviour. Refusing to communicate, not answering any messages, then responding within 5 minutes when feedback is left is evidence to me that he recieved my messages and did not want to own up to his behaviour.
Honestly, if he had just apologized at that point, then I would have been willing to work out a deal to remove his neutral feedback (probably would have just done it), as the feedback was based on a complete lack of response. Instead, he attacks me personally in several very rude PMs. Given that, I feel that my neutral should stand. Additionally, since he states that he would have given me good feedback is proof that he was happy with everything in the trade except his feedback, thus him giving me a neutral would be retaliatory.
However, this is my opinion, and only the opinion of the admins matters in this situation, so they have been forwarded a complete log off all our communication.
------------------
As a marginally amusing sidenote, another person whom I recently traded with, who had a 2 week delay in shipping, but kept me informed of the status just got positive feedback. Heck, I remember a time that I waited 2 months for an MO to arrive for some parts.
I must reiterate, the issue is not the delay, the issue is the complete lack of communication from someone who has been around long enough to know better.
The production of useful work is limited by the laws of thermodynamics, but the production of useless work seems unlimited.
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ancientsociety ( 842 )
- Millenium Trader
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 2:46 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
@Al: Yeah, we all understand that "life happens". However, as a party in a trade you are conducting business with another person. It's simply good business practice (and common courtesy) to inform people you are doing business with if there are any delays, problems, etc. As I've posted in this forum before ('Vacations, moving, active duty, etc. when trading'), people are not gifted with ESP. The other party has no idea that "life" has happened to you if you fail to communicate that. As such, you open yourself to criticism.
There are VERY few instances which are good excuses for failing to inform your trading partner (in a timely matter) of delays or problems (especially when this delays things longer than 1-2 days) - namely the hospitalization of you or close family, a death in the family, jail, etc.
Personally, I always try to send within 2-3 business days of agreement, usually within 24 hours. If there is ANY delay, thise I trade with can be sure that I'll let them know ASAP.
Fib is completely within his right to leave neutral feedback, regardless of his trade partner's refs.
@ Fib: "What I care about it, people with a 100+ rating are the ones that newbs tend to look to for cues on what is acceptable behaviour. Refusing to communicate, not answering any messages, then responding within 5 minutes when feedback is left is evidence to me that he recieved my messages and did not want to own up to his behaviour. "
I totally agree. It seems we've had a rash of rude, inconsiderate noobs here lately, and this should be even more reason for the seasoned vets here to act in a friendly, courteous manner.
Like you, I was recently attacked with "f and s you" after simply asking someone with lower refs to send first. I immediately contacted Lin and let him know since it's in the rules to be polite and courteous.
If this other trader was a good trader, he would have tried to work something out with you instead of avoiding the problem and then personally attacking you. That IS NOT a good trader, no matter how many refs he has.
There are VERY few instances which are good excuses for failing to inform your trading partner (in a timely matter) of delays or problems (especially when this delays things longer than 1-2 days) - namely the hospitalization of you or close family, a death in the family, jail, etc.
Personally, I always try to send within 2-3 business days of agreement, usually within 24 hours. If there is ANY delay, thise I trade with can be sure that I'll let them know ASAP.
Fib is completely within his right to leave neutral feedback, regardless of his trade partner's refs.
@ Fib: "What I care about it, people with a 100+ rating are the ones that newbs tend to look to for cues on what is acceptable behaviour. Refusing to communicate, not answering any messages, then responding within 5 minutes when feedback is left is evidence to me that he recieved my messages and did not want to own up to his behaviour. "
I totally agree. It seems we've had a rash of rude, inconsiderate noobs here lately, and this should be even more reason for the seasoned vets here to act in a friendly, courteous manner.
Like you, I was recently attacked with "f and s you" after simply asking someone with lower refs to send first. I immediately contacted Lin and let him know since it's in the rules to be polite and courteous.
If this other trader was a good trader, he would have tried to work something out with you instead of avoiding the problem and then personally attacking you. That IS NOT a good trader, no matter how many refs he has.
Trading Guidelines:
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.
1. Lower rating ships first - even if I am purchasing.
2. If you agree to buy something, you have 72hrs. in which to pay. If payment is not received in 72hrs., I will automatically post a Non-Payment/Backout thread.
3. Refs are left upon positive receipt of goods, NEVER beforehand!
4. I accept Paypal & USPS money orders and charge for shipping AT COST. I make no profit from it.
5. I trade NIB/new models at retail.
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Morlock-Bloodletter ( 34 )
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2400
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 5:34 pm
- Location: Arizona
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Morlock-Bloodletter ( 34 )
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2400
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 5:34 pm
- Location: Arizona