Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by NuWishA »

3eland wrote:Well from my understanding GW has always been anti-tournament. Sure they supported it but their intention with the game was for fun fluffy battles. Jervis has gone on record stating this many times.
The fact that Jervis is still employed is a large reason why GW "games" are getting so terrible these days. He doesn't know what he is doing when it comes to anything other than his favorite armies, and has been public in making armies he doesn't like terrible.

GW has pushed out or lost all of their game designers, and just have graphic artists around making models and printing rulebooks (with deviantart artists filling their pages).

Now I must eagerly await my Calth boxes. For there is much FW HH to play. :D
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Man, I thought I'd be excited about the calth stuff, but now that it's come around, I'm not. The price tag is just too much for something so clearly slapped together: redesigns of existing kits, and a 6-scenario board game doesn't warrant $150 to me. I guess it's my recent games of choice, but you can get a lot of nice, complete, well-designed games for that rather than something that I can only assume (based on everything recent except their space hulk re-releases) is just some light-weight trash. And I have enough marines, sloped grills or no, to play HH games if I want to.

And yeah, Jervis seems to be a large part of what's wrong with their design.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by pretre »

spiralingcadaver wrote:Man, I thought I'd be excited about the calth stuff, but now that it's come around, I'm not. The price tag is just too much for something so clearly slapped together: redesigns of existing kits, and a 6-scenario board game doesn't warrant $150 to me. I guess it's my recent games of choice, but you can get a lot of nice, complete, well-designed games for that rather than something that I can only assume (based on everything recent except their space hulk re-releases) is just some light-weight trash. And I have enough marines, sloped grills or no, to play HH games if I want to.

And yeah, Jervis seems to be a large part of what's wrong with their design.
I dunno man, that's a good price for 30 marines, 2 characters, 5 terminators and a contemptor. Even at GW normal prices, that's cheap for non-snap fit minis, forget about FW prices for HH stuff.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Yeah... that's the thing, though.

1- I don't need more marines (the dread is the only thing there I wouldn't expect every marine player to have in spades, even if not as pretty)
2- cheap by GW standards is still expensive enough by most other gaming standards that a good GW deal is still not a good deal
3- I think the mentality of shoddy rules as an excuse to sell more of the same to add to a collection (rather than good rules designed to sell expansions) is starting to wear on me.

I really like 40k's world and vibe, but have been finding Black Crusade a much more entertaining access point to said world of late, since I already have decently-sized collections of a few armies and don't feel the need to make huge ones or other one more variant on power armor. BC has been a ton of fun, since epic battles are ones with 10 space marines in them or 1 monstrous creature, rather than those being basically fodder. It means we play everything painted and it doesn't take 2 years to get ready for.

If I'm playing 40k, I have plenty of guys. If I want to play HH, I'm perfectly happy taking my lion-themed knights with a bit too much pride and some heretical leanings (Astral Claws) and reorganizing their squads and maybe making a few more and calling them lion-themed knights with some heretical leanings (Dark Angels, their implied founders) or wolf-themed guys with a bit too much pride and some heretical leanings (Luna Wolves).

I actually just traded off my warhound titan because, as epic as a titan is, I don't play enough large 40k games for that to be worth it, compared to hundreds of dollars worth of board games I wanted, and some limited edition resin characters, and not needing the biggest of my centerpieces is a good indicator to me that I don't need more basic power armored grunts, marine characters, terminators, or dreadnoughts, since I already have a bunch that are unpainted, as I'm sure just about every 40k player does, since they come in just about every edition kit besides having the largest aftermarket pool.


So just comes down to the fact that a reasonably large quantity of re-skinned power armor with what's almost assuredly a poor game for a bit too much is not what I'd consider an exciting deal.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by Doctari »

Most people complaining about AoS have not bothered to play it as written, not bothered to play any scenarios, simply put they have either watched a battle report (with someone who was very upset over the switch likely) or tried to play WHFB using AoS rules. I've never seen a game system that was given so little a chance from jump.

Players: WE HATE HAVING TO SPEND MONEY ON NEW CODEX AND RULE BOOKS.
GW: K. Here's all the rules (very condensed and concise) with specific rules released for each model on a scroll (like that warmachine game we hear you guys love, except not on cards) and that's all going to be free.
Players: We hate you, catch space cooties and die.

Players: We're tired of our models not being able to be used.
Gw: K. Here's rules for (most) of the models we've put out in the past 25 years. Also free.
Players: GAH DAD! YOU JUST DON'T GET US!

Players: We want a point system.
GW: No you don't, you want to feel that the game is somewhat self balancing so you don't have to talk to your "friends" and make sure they're not being a *edit* head.
Players: I HATE YOU! KOS FOR LIFE (which as an aside is a fine game, no hate for it at all!)

This last point is really the only place that GW stumbled with the AoS switch over. They completely underestimated that level of desire for players to have points or some other army building system in place so that they can at least get mad at the game when someone acts like a turd. A perfect example of "points don't make a balanced game" is (somewhat unsurprisingly) 40k. 2000 points of say... sisters of battle are in now way balanced with a 2000 point decurian Necron set up.

None of this is to say that GW is a perfect company. If they want to survive and grow this (and I assume they do) they are going to have to do some pretty quick stepping.

Matthew's guide for GW surviving into the electronic age:

1. Be transparent on Social Media. GW hates social media and acts like a 12 year old who has an embarrassing picture of herself posted by the school bully. They react to any negative feedback by turtling up and not accepting it. This is no longer an age where one can ignore their customers.. at least not for very long. GW has to be more active on social media platforms, I mean they don't even have a company facebook page.. that's just babytown frolics.

2. They have to accept that this is the age of the online retailer. They have tried to keep their prices over inflated have, in a word, failed miserably. They have to entice people into their B&M stores. Store exclusive models, discount over RRP, etc. Unfortunately when you have been making money using a model for a long time change is slow.

3. Lower cost to play for the entry point of their game (which to be blunt with AoS and HH:BAC they are doing very nicely)

4. Your boxed sets have to be values. No one wants a web bundle with 0% discount.

5. Support a tournament set up. To be honest following WotC's Magic model would be a decent idea.

Well I've ranted on long enough I suppose.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Yeah, I've got no problem with free or simplified rules and an easily if not elegantly scaleable system. The throwing out points, raising costs, poor social media presence, and outright rejection of tournaments (see social presence and no points) do too much damage to make what feels like 70% of a nice light weight system (the other 30% being a balancing structure that makes any approximate sense and a good company attitude).
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by nightlord »

Does Jervis My Johnson ever give a reason to WHY he dosent like tourneys?? I mean that kind of thought process makes little sense to me. Take into the fact that when I went to my first ever Grand Tourney in Dallas Tx. there was as many fantasy players as there were 40k players. And some of the paint jobs on the fantasy armies were beyond belief.

Now go several years before that. There was a convention in Mississippi called Coast Con. We had more people playing in the Epic Space marine/ Titan Legion tourney then the 40k tourney and fantasy combined.

Its quite bizarre how companies seem to undermine what sells for them.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by 3eland »

He stated that Warhammer was never meant, nor set up, for competitive play. He stated that it is because of the competitive aspect that drove Warhammer more towards balancing and pleasing than the epic fluffy battles of lore.

People were playing more for the win than for the story.

Or something like that. I can find the article later.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Because mechanical balance hurts narrative games.

...According to good ol' Jervis.

The only time I'd agree with that is Warmachine insofar as mechanics hurting narrative, but I'd argue that's about the mechanics they implemented rather than the game balance. Other than that, I've never seen a game where having good competitive balance hurt your ability to have an interestingly narrative game if you wanted to.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by HawtFist »

Doctari wrote: Matthew's guide for GW surviving into the electronic age:

1. Be transparent on Social Media.

2. They have to accept that this is the age of the online retailer.

3. Lower cost to play for the entry point of their game (which to be blunt with AoS and HH:BAC they are doing very nicely)

4. Your boxed sets have to be values. No one wants a web bundle with 0% discount.

5. Support a tournament set up.
And I'd add a sixth and seventh point. Though seven is a bit of an extension of your third point.

Six: actually do market research. It's 2015. It's not hard, at all, to get the perspective of your retailers and customers, and some unemployed guy with an MA in sociology could design a seven question survey that would give them at least the basic information about their base. How old are they? Where are they? Who spends the most? On what? Where do they spend it? What other forms of media do they consume? What would they like from the company? Some sampling, some check-boxes, and a stats program and BOOM.

Seven: Not just entry price point needs to be lowered. In the past six days I've bought what would add up to $160 retail of X-Wing and $250 retail on Infinity (I actually paid less between sales and trades and whatnot). For the same price that would get me one small army from GW I have 2 small armies and the start of another for Infinity, and two decent sized opposing X-Wing forces. And to have a viable third force will run me less than another $100 retail. Some excerpts from my last email to them:

"[L]et's talk about minis: if I bought every pre-painted miniature for all three factions of X-Wing at Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) - EVERY SINGLE ITEM THEY OFFER - I'd still spend less that $1,200 including sales tax. And I can play my first game with a friend for about $40. Every single model in a faction you sell would come to between $2,000 and $5,000! (Excluding the not really a faction Inquisition faction). Collecting the entirety of 40k at say 2,000 points each would run me over $30,000. My ******* Honda didn't cost that much, and it has voice recognition, GPS, and gets 35 MPG. And your starter kit, Dark Vengeance comes to over $100... more than twice the price of FFGs game. Infinity sells a starter set for about $100 - but theirs comes with a full set of scenery, and most of a field-able army. And an entire faction for them comes in at about $1,500. And their models are super good quality, just like yours ... [O]wning a ton of models isn't necessarily the point - otherwise every player would have Astra Militarum and Ork blob armies. But that isn't what people want, really - you sell Knights and Bloodthirsters because people love those gorgeous models - assembling and painting them. Doing a really good job on a few nice minis.

Your books are frequently priced at about $25-30 per hardcover, and $15-20 per eBook. An eBook I cannot legally resell. ... And your minis? I buy them or trade for them online with other players, occasionally buying them from a retailer or Amazon at a discount new. And I do mean occasionally. I think I've spent $120 on new GW minis in the past year... and over $200 in PayPal or trade for retail $400 worth of minis from people online ... And the Codexes? Who would buy them new? $50 for $25 worth of content. I buy them used.

And... look, guys, between the wife and I we do OK. We are not poor. We are solidly middle class, what's left of it in this country ... And I can't afford your books, much less your minis. ... [D]on't even get me started on 24 page long novellas by Mr. McNiell you sell for over $8 ... Or a squad of Sisters for what, like $80? I assumed, at first, your website had a bug when I saw that price ... Even if you have to pay your lawyers a bloody million pound retainer per year to sue the **** out of some poor sap that uses space marine in an unrelated title to your IP (and don't even get me started on your "Astra Militarum" renaming), you are still making a ton.

Oh, and Forge World? Who can realistically spend over $1,500 on a model? That market segment has got to be tiny... but you wouldn't know, because you don't even actually do market research!!! Are you still operating out of a van in the late '70s?

Economics 101 time here guys: there is two ways to make a reasonable amount of money - first, you charge a ton for an item you expect to sell only a few of; secondly, you charge less for items you plan to sell more of. Henry Ford had a good point - if you price your product where the average man can afford it, more people will buy it. And you can make money not by charging more, but by charging less and selling more. I mean, McDonald's didn't give millions of people colon cancer by marking up the price of their burgers 500%. They did it by selling reasonably good tasting food for dirt cheap.

Your market could be huge. [If prices were lower] - if you cut the price in half I'd have Tau, Knights, MT, AM, Chaos, and SM armies by now. And board games are going gangbusters right now. That guy who made Settlers and the guys who made Cards Against Humanity and whatnot? Those guys are getting rich. People are going to board game conventions. Your market and theirs share some similarities. Hipster douchebags and teenagers are buying stuff like that now, and your product appeals to some of that market. And yet I have to explain to my nerd friends what an Amazing game Space Hulk is. Then they play it. Then they ask how much it costs... and they just keep playing my game with me.

... I'm not going to play or collect a huge army unless you lower your prices. Just paint and wish I could afford an army to play with. ... I have no idea why you would try to open a GW store here. You can't swear at your stores, kids generally prefer video games, your prices are sky high, and everyone started playing X-Wing, Infinity, and/or Dark Heresy five years ago or so when you kept raising prices despite A GLOBAL ******* RECESSION. Wages here in the states, and I think there too, have stagnated ... Who could afford [a huge army] anymore? When they were a buck or two each it was doable with time. But now, at $3-6 dollars a mini and $35-55 per vehicle you'd have to take out a second mortgage. The only thing going up faster than your prices is college tuition.

Look, I know you are a publicly traded company and need to make some profits and have stock prices go up. But I also know you could sell the fact that a couple lean years are needed to avoid total collapse to your investors.

I wish I'd applied to be Games Workshop's CEO a year or two ago when that was open. Oh well."

Fact is that they could start charging less per mini and model and make up lost revenue through increased sales. How many of us wish we had the money to collect another army, or go through a Sisters or Necron or Tau phase?

These minis, this game, it's become a luxury good. You know how I know? No one in China puts up a website to get my money for a knockoff Target purse. It's always Michael Kors or some rich Italian designer's bag. Why? Because demand for those is way higher than the number of people who can afford them. So when guys on /tg start giving out clandestine information on how to contact a recaster in some third world country so Bob in Toronto or Phil in Sydney can have an army that tells you straight up that GW could lower prices and still be in business.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Agreed for the most part.*

I had a warhound titan sitting around from when I got one in a big trade largely because I wanted a centerpiece and was getting better at painting, and I recently to traded it off for one of the hugest board games I've ever played, and a ton of supplementary material. And that was a baby titan by FW standards. The big point being, instead of having a single (very nice) model that I could occasionally play in oversized games that messed with the flow/balance of the game, I could have dozens of (very nice) models that came with a ton of content. Though, I wouldn't badmouth FW that much, people do buy Warlords, so that's more of a gamble that's paid off.

In one of many AoS rants I've seen around, someone made a really nice point about GW- they've got things with a high investment (money, time), but rules/background that's light-weight, so they need to find a weird niche of people who want to put a lot into one part of their hobby but not the other.

I'm curious to see about the basically confirmed revival of Specialist Games. That line was what I played more than anything else, and I'm curious what prices and support that stuff will have.

*Most notably, I'd disagree that Catan and Cards against Humanity are the same market at all, and as snarky as cards against humanity is, it's 80%+ the much more widely accepted apples to apples with smarter graphic design, not that I like either, but not liking a game isn't an excuse to insult their fanbase.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by HawtFist »

And to be clear, I am a hipster douchebag and love every game listed in my rant. I did not mean that as an insult, and if I insulted anyone, I apologize.

I do think there is definitely some overlap between people who love Catan and CAH and people who play games like Infinity, X-Wing, and yes, even GW. I have friends who, like me, play all 5 games. Maybe it's not a huge ellipses on the Venn diagram, but GW could definitely appeal to more people if prices were lowered and they engaged in market research driven advertising and marketing.

ETA: and I too am excited to see what happens with Specialist games
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by NuWishA »

For what its worth, the board game for Calth is actually fun. What I like more than anything about the box set though is getting more people into 30k, where the tau don't exist.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by HawtFist »

This is probably a discussion for another thread, but the Tau could be so creepy and evil with just a little work. It's always vaguely hinted out without them going full bore into. Unlike the Necrons, the Tau could be individuals, they could have hopes and dreams and capitalism... and there is a certain amount of tragedy in the Etherials and Fire caste and whatnot subjugating the individual for "the greater good." There's also an awesome possibility of delving into the downside of the military industrial complex inherent in their need for conquest and the inevitable takeover of the Fire Caste. If this were a setting involving subtlety, it would be fine that it's only hinted at and implied, but when Chaos marines shout "blood for the blood god" while their opposites render citizens of Terra into battle drugs, Dark Eldar are full bore evil and the Imperium is obviously fascist, it seems a little odd for them to be restrained about the Tau.
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Re: Again I ask the question, Is GW going full DRAT??

Post by spiralingcadaver »

On other games, no worries, wasn't offended, just thought you were going a little too far.

On Tau, I always thought they were s'posed to be the (basically? closer to?) good guys, esp. as they were introduced around the time a lot of the other areas were getting darker.

Re: Calth, yeah, I'm a bit curious. Thought the Assassins game was way too light to be worth the price tag; calth is a better deal by far, but still the typical problem of looking at GW, then at other companies (esp. board games, where that's an even heavier comparative cost).
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I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

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