Is it really the end of Warhammer Fantasy?

[NuWishA]

KoW is actively telling people they can use other companies models in their tournaments. And releasing army lists that coincide with other companies models.

So yeah, they really are. They want the old WHFB fanboys to come play Alessio's game again.

[3eland]

I heard about that.

Might as well eh?

Cash in on another company's misfortune.

[reegsk]

Loopholes:

- Take one Carrion model, choose the "Win on Turn Six" sudden death objective, and never swoop down. Auto-win.
- You can shoot every turn regardless. I can move my organ gun forward, fire, get charged, then politely ask the Bloodletters to hold up a sec so I can reload said organ gun to shoot them point blank.
- As 3eland pointed out, you can take Fateweaver and a Screaming Bell. Auto-win.

Those're the first three I've noticed, although I haven't dug through every Warscroll yet. I'm sure there are more. And you know I didn't mean Dwarves never fail leadership tests. We've all had that bad roll (like the time a Chaos Dragon landed next to my Ironbreakers and their failed their Terror test turn one. . .ah, 6th Edition). 40k has never been balanced and probably never will, and it's lack of balance has nothing to do with Fantasy. Fantasy was always far more balanced than 40k could hope to be. There have always been those d-bag lists that a mediocre player can use to roll newer players, but a good player with a good, balanced army could beat them more often than not, and place well at a tournament.

And for the record, I'm that guy screaming Waaagh! at the top of his lungs when rolling for Animosity on the turn I declare my Waaagh, or grumbling about how Dwarves these days lack a stout heart if I fail a Fear test. That part of the game I like. It's the rules, the lack of balance and the utter annihilation of the game I love that bother me. Here's a breakdown of my Pros and Cons of AoS.

Pros
- Simpler rules. Much simpler. The biggest stumbling block for new players was the ruleset. It was dense and took a long time to understand. These rules you can pick up in five minutes. And no more arguments about arcs of sight, proper wheeling, etc.
- Faster play. No more checking WS and S v. T charts to figure out Hit/Wound, or remembering the Strength modifier to Armor Saves (or taking multiple saves, for that matter). Movement is mind-numbingly simple now, too.
- No massive entry level for models. They really do mean that this is a game you can play with a single box, which I like. Nobody wanted to play a Fantasy game below about 2k points because the rules didn't scale down well. Now there's really no difference in play between what would have been a 500pt game or a 3500pt game (although a house rule eliminating minimum unit size or treating every model as its own unit might help for really small games, otherwise it'll be one unit fighting one unit).
- Focus drawn away from competitive play and back toward fun. At least for now, that is. Those rules that get you to do ridiculous things make me smile, although some are a bit more extreme than others (and it sounds like those will go away, sadly). The lack of points means you have to discuss what you want to get out of the game, and can agree ahead of time to have a lopsided challenge (your thirty Ironbreakers will see how long they can hold back a tide of hundreds of Night Goblins) or a somewhat balanced game. And it almost forces you to create your own scenarios with the different realms and terrain types (another thing I like).

Cons
- Tough things got a lot squishier. This is partly from playing a higher Toughness and better Armor Save army for fifteen years, but now Night Goblins need the same hit and wound rolls against Skavenslaves, Ironbreakers, Dragons and Steam Tanks. It looks like the system does balance out overall between Saves, increased Wounds on characters/monsters, and Damage values, but it's still a mental shift.
- Heroes are likely to die first. They can't hide in units, and with no To Hit penalties for cover (and no cover granted by friendly units), a ranged army will pick out all of your powerful characters before they get to do much. A trio of Flame Cannons with Engineers can kill almost any single model in the game (except for Nagash) with one round of shooting (24" range, auto-hit, D6 Mortal Wounds each, and on a 4+ another D6 Mortal Wounds, so an average of about 17). While a Lord on a Dragon was always a cannonball magnet, now even a powerful model on foot is just as much a target, unless you can completely hide every part of the model behind something.
- War Machines are. . .weird. So you can target the machine and the crew separately (though crew do get Cover for being near the machine). But it doesn't specify it has to be THAT machine's crew nearby to operate it. So if you have two war machines next to each other and one loses two out of three crew, the other none, can I move one crew member closer to the other war machine so they both have two crewing it? Which sort of goes back to 6th, where a machine could be destroyed with the crew surviving, so the crew could always move over and crew another machine. And why, as a Dwarf player, would you ever take anything other than flame cannons? Not only are they the most badass, they're also the most effective (since they all cost the same). Speaking of which. . .
- No points. As we've discussed, there is no way to balance the game. Which in a friendly game isn't as much of a problem. But it also leaves you open to accidentally making a too-powerful list. The kid who really likes the flame cannon because he thinks it's cool can get branded a cheesy player because it's very powerful.
- The world has changed. Or been completely destroyed. The GW rep even said it - the special rules are a nod to what was, and will go away. My Dwarves won't be Dwarves for much longer. And I'm afraid the aesthetic is going to shift to those damn Sigmarines. I'm not saying they're bad models, but they're not Fantasy models. I fear what'll happen to my Dwarfs. And those names! Steamhead Duardin, Aelfs, Ooruks (not like Orcs combined with Uruks at all), and Ogors (the worst of the bunch). This is just like the Imperial Guard suddenly becoming Astra Militarum (a name that at least fit the setting) - a name change for no other reason than to tighten GW's IP.
- Measuring from the model - This one I get what they were going for, but it's clunky. Movement was simplified by the rules but made more complex by this. No part of the model can move more than the model's move value. Since all models have 360 LoS, facing isn't much of an issue. But I think you're going to see arguments over whether a model is the same exact angle as it was before it moved, especially with models that have outstretched arms or long weapons. Something like a Daemon Prince with a sword that reaches out 2" from its center would move four inches just by turning 180 degrees. I think measuring from bases was simpler, although switching from square to round would leads to arguments over proper base size and whatnot, so they had to do something.

[reegsk]

And I think someone from Mantic posted a tongue-in-cheek tweet about how interest in KoW second edition suddenly skyrocketed.

[pretre]

- As 3eland pointed out, you can take Fateweaver and a Screaming Bell. Auto-win.

This doesn't work.

"Once per game, you can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of your choosing"

Fateweaver can't turn a roll on a D6 into a 7 anymore he can turn D3 stomps into 5000 or 4 because those aren't valid results of a single dice roll.

[kturock]

The same cheese can be found with 40K and flying monstrous creatures.
and then the player won't have a 2nd game.
There's a guy at the local GW store, he plays a cheesy necron list, a cheesy skitari list with and without knights.
No one wants to play him after his 1st game.

I looked back through the posts and don't see what you mean where 3eland said about the screaming bell. I'm looking over the skaven warpscroll now and don't see the problem. Please illuminate. Also same for Fateweaver.

GW got rid of all the things players have been complaining about; why they've switched to WA/H or won't try fantasy.

The people who liked the Napolonics move system are becoming fewer and fewer. BTW I liked the old form of movement older editions, and not in the last one. I was one of the few. The game is dying, it's either adapt and survive or die.

GW has changed it to add more players; it hasn't been working. So there were 3 choices; continue and lose money, drop the game or change it.
They did a combination of the last 2. If a company isn't making money, it goes out of business, no matter how much you liked it.
Look at TSR. If you have to ask who; that proves my point.
GW has always been a model company with rules; not a rules company with models.

Your 1st 3 cons are all changes in the game. You sound like a M:TG player after the newest release. "Stuff changed and I don't like it. My super power combo, doesn't work anymore." Then again, every edition of 40k had the same problem. I left 40k after 2nd ed became 3rd ed. I didn't like the squad based system. Neither did alot of other people. That's how Warzone started up. Old 40k players and designers. I came back in 5th because it was still being played and nothing else was. Now with 6th & 7th, I'm like the game. I don't like the tournament only lists. One of the reasons I left M:TG.

As far as the heroes can't hide anymore. That was a cheese tactic. Look-out sir is over used in 40k.

This is only going to be a friendly game. GW has stopped supporting tournaments.
Now a game can be see how long you can survive vs this army or 1000 deamons, or orcs or skaven; or all giant monsters. It's going to be about scenarios. It was before and got put aside for the more common, kill all lists and games.
40k had to add objective cards to change it.

The movement problem is used in 40k without complaints. Look at set up with vehicles. I can place my rhinos on the line, sideways. At turn 1, i pivot them 90 degrees and gain half their length in free movement. Same with flyers, you don't measure from the base. So pivot and gain free movement.

[kturock]

And I think someone from Mantic posted a tongue-in-cheek tweet about how interest in KoW second edition suddenly skyrocketed.

I saw a post on FB from Mantic offering a free download of 2nd ed..sometime this week.

[kturock]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/ ... eaked.html

Wow, even if this isn't 'official', it's a quick and easy way to make lists for those who must have them.

[3eland]

- As 3eland pointed out, you can take Fateweaver and a Screaming Bell. Auto-win.

This doesn't work.

"Once per game, you can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of your choosing"

Fateweaver can't turn a roll on a D6 into a 7 anymore he can turn D3 stomps into 5000 or 4 because those aren't valid results of a single dice roll.

Well technically the guy at Forgeworld said it WAS possible (Anything is possible in AoS), you just wouldn't have many players to play with.

LOL

Games Workshop is releasing an app that helps build lists so we would have to see what that is about.

Also word today that Forgeworld will be releasing warscrolls for all their Fantasy models too!

[pretre]

- As 3eland pointed out, you can take Fateweaver and a Screaming Bell. Auto-win.

This doesn't work.

"Once per game, you can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of your choosing"

Fateweaver can't turn a roll on a D6 into a 7 anymore he can turn D3 stomps into 5000 or 4 because those aren't valid results of a single dice roll.

Well technically the guy at Forgeworld said it WAS possible (Anything is possible in AoS), you just wouldn't have many players to play with.

LOL

Games Workshop is releasing an app that helps build lists so we would have to see what that is about.

Also word today that Forgeworld will be releasing warscrolls for all their Fantasy models too!

Allegedly, the guy at FW said it. And redshirts/random GW folks have never been a source for rules.

[jdm921]

also doesnt the screaming bell auto win on an unmodified roll of 13 on 2d6 or is there something else im missing with it?

[kturock]

13 - Improbable Victory!: Against all probability and reason, you immediately win the battle (and are hereafter branded a cheat – not that that should bother a true skaven general).

on 2d6.

[pretre]

That's the point.

[reegsk]

The only way to get that 13 is to use Kairos and the Screaming Bell together. You can use any models from your collection in any combination you wish, so that's perfectly legal.

Kairos, Oracle of Eternity states, "Once per game, you can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of your choosing." 13 is listed as a result on the Screaming Bell chart, so you roll your two dice, then change it to 13. Game over.

[kturock]

and are hereafter branded a cheat