Aaaaarrrgggghhhhh. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

[pretre]

The points drop is significant. No taking away from that.
Forgive me... As I said, I haven't had time to STUDY the book, so many details are lost when "off the top of my head."
What do you men by "4+ constant." I don't do a lot of online discussion for 40K so, if that ("constant") is an online term (like 4++ or 4+++, etc), it's lost on me.
Are you just referring to the armor save, or...?

Cover Save was a 4+ constant. Now you need to activate it when someone shoots at you (jink).

That said, making bikes less tough in my group (loss of the constant cover save) makes them A LOT weaker in my group, regardless of points. The only bikes that ever held up in my group were Nob bikers. Regular bikes died in droves. Even when they managed to get the PK into HtH, it rarely ever did much. Usually, it was overwhelmed before it got to strike and, when it DID work, it rarely did anything significant.

You get it whenever you want now. As soon as someone declares shooting at your unit, you can say 'I jink'. Also, because they are so cheap, you can get more wounds and more PK attacks than your Nob unit for cheaper (with Warboss and Painboy).

[optimusprime14]

He meant that the rules for Jink have changed. Ork bikes used to get a 4+ cover save all the time. They lost that but (like all bikes) have a 4+ jink save (forces them to snap shoot, which for Orks doesn't affect them a whole lot) and the get a 3+ cover save if they turbo boost.

Nob bikers used to be the way to go for Ork bikes, Cybork armour and a painboy made for a tough nut, but with the points drop regular bikers may have a role now. They are not an auto take but they can make their points back more easily now.

I think it will take a while for people to find the Ork synergy again. For all their fluff, they are one of the harder armies to play very well. They really do require a lot of inter-army support but when it's done well, it is very effective.

The build has changed now as it's no longer 3 squads of lootas in battle wagons with nob bikers and a minimum about of boys thrown in. Mass truck boys (super cheap) battle wagons supported by 'Naughts, All biker with KFF meks on bikes, it''ll be another month before we see what really works rise to the top, but I think the book is fairly competitive.

People always whine about what they lost in a book but rarely talk abut what they gained. I remember people complaining about what Eldar lost when their book came out and look where that army is now in the meta

[pretre]

The build has changed now as it's no longer 3 squads of lootas in battle wagons with nob bikers and a minimum about of boys thrown in. Mass truck boys (super cheap) battle wagons supported by 'Naughts, All biker with KFF meks on bikes, it''ll be another month before we see what really works rise to the top, but I think the book is fairly competitive.

Yeah, I think 6+ trukk boy squads with a big squad of warbikers, Warboss and Mek with KFF on bikes would be badass.

[MagickalMemories]

Myself, I didn't complain too much about Eldar. There are a few tricks I miss, but they're far outweighed by the benefits.

As for the Bikes, I was looking at Codex changes, so I wasn't considering the main rules. Honestly, I like comparing like to like. So, if you compare them "with rulebook" from the new Dex, you should do the same. That will show the weaknesses more clearly.
For example, the OLD codex could Jink in this edition of the rules, but didn't have to. As a result, the new changes mean that, to keep their cover save the same, you (statistically) get half as many hits (and, thus, wounds) in shooting with them. That's HUGE, IMO.

Another annoyance to me is moving Lootas to Heavy Support. I find that to be wrong. I mean, their guns aren't THAT tough (IMO). It's not the end of the world, but it's a peeve of mine. Sadly gone are the days of 2 or 3 ten-man Loota squads in Big Squiggoths (my group uses non-Superheavy FW as a "no permission required" allowance)... and I just bought 2 Big Squiggoths late last year. : (

Eric

[pretre]

For example, the OLD codex could Jink in this edition of the rules, but didn't have to. As a result, the new changes mean that, to keep their cover save the same, you (statistically) get half as many hits (and, thus, wounds) in shooting with them. That's HUGE, IMO.

Half as many hits isn't as big a deal as you think.
BS5 Twin Linked = .55 Hits per shot
BS6 Twin Linked = .30 Hits per Shot
But Eben, that's almost half as many hits... True, but... You get 1.47 as many Bikers now so...
For 250 Points of bikers (10 dudes at old cost) vs 238 Points of the New (14 dudes), that's 13.75 Wounds for the New vs 16.66 for the old. Only a 23% reduction in killing power and you get 4 more wounds, extra swings in hand to hand, etc. Plus now you get the option of a 3+ Cover save if you want it. See. Things aren't as black and white as you thought.

Another annoyance to me is moving Lootas to Heavy Support. I find that to be wrong. I mean, their guns aren't THAT tough (IMO). It's not the end of the world, but it's a peeve of mine. Sadly gone are the days of 2 or 3 ten-man Loota squads in Big Squiggoths (my group uses non-Superheavy FW as a "no permission required" allowance)... and I just bought 2 Big Squiggoths late last year. : (

That was a bit annoying. Guess it's time to convert those lootas to flash gits.

[MagickalMemories]

Fair point on the bikers.
Puts a crick in my neck about GW, of course. NOW, we have to buy MORE OVERPRICED MODELS to be as competitive as before.
::shocker::

Again - haven't studied them -
Aren't FGits a bit overpriced, still, though?

Eric

[pretre]

Not as bad as before, but yes. My thoughts on heavy are one big loota squad and two Mek gun squads.