Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

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Norseman ( 374 )
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Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Norseman »

Okay I don't want to offend anyone or cause a flame war with this, but am I the only one that thinks Warmachine and Hordes is absolutely terrible.

What am I doing wrong. We have played a bunch of different scenarios and points values up to 50 always staying at 1 caster.

My thoughts:
There are no tactics in the game it's all about going balls deep and taking big risks. You win or lose on the dice(luck).
Ranges are to close; by the time shooting comes into play you are already at risk for HtH.
Rules are very slanted to Hordes. Pile on that rage as there aint going to be a next turn anyways.
Some of the Feats are just stupid, and ruin the game. (Cryx)
It doesn't matter if you totally wreck your opponents army if he gets a lucky and kills your warcaster you lose, in EVERY mission.

I know I am not the only one as I have discussed this with a few other 40K players trying the game out. Most really dislike the game as I do.

Are we playing to small of games? I know I really don't enjoy 500point games of 40k. I have been told by a few WM/HRDS players that the bigger games come down to the same thing. Just bigger scale.

I just find 40k superior in every way.

Your thoughts...

I would like to actually enjoy this game as I have a large army, and would like to have another game to play when I need a break from 40k.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by eman1_2 »

I had a large Menoth army, and the Skorne and the Everblight starters for Hordes. Hated the game, and refuse to buy it again.

For the same reasons you said. And it is REALLY expensive. More so than GW, even though the PP players claim it isn't.

The few games I won, still didn't feel good. Dude completely outplayed me. We were playing 75 points, I think. He had me killed almost to a man - I had like 1 gernadier and my caster left. I killed like 2 infantry of his. His caster stuck his head out, and I got lucky with tru LOS and killed the caster. And won. Yet he outplayed and outrolled me for over an hour.

The game is just not fun. If it could be run with no caster / machines, it would be much better. But you need those in order to compete. and then, your caster gets killed, and either the game is over, or (in the extremely rare scenario where you would keep playing), 2/3 of your points are useless hulks just sitting there. And you have "to keep up with the Jones" - if you don't buy the latest greatest caster combo / machine, you lose.

to me, it seemed to come down to:
1 - who has been playing longer - add +3
2 - who has the newest figures - add +3
And then dice off before the game instead of actaully playing, since you can pretty much tell before you start who will win.

Edit - got burned by a trader in 2007 over my Everblight, and that helped sour me on the game, too.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Plarz »

(I'm a volunteer for PP, and have been playing for 3+ years. I left 40k for it. Please understand this is part sales-pitch, and part my personal experiences)

The game is like chess and rock-paper-scissors rolled into one. You have to know what every piece on the table (yours and your opponent's) does in order to fully anticipate what's going to happen, and plan for it. You have to figure out how to use your paper to beat your opponent's rock, and so on. The hardest part of the game isn't learning the mechanics or understanding what each individual piece does. It's learning how the pieces interact to become greater than their parts.

What went wrong for you two, IMHO, is jumping in to large games right away. The general rule of thumb is to play 20+ battlebox (~11pts) games before you go bigger. You have to know your own models backwards and forwards, and you have to know what your enemy can do. Along with 20+ games, you have to go in knowing you're going to loose the first 19. You will loose lots before you start winning. Just like learning to play chess, one small screw-up, and you're done.

To continue the chess analogy, the warcaster (warlock) is the King and Queen in one piece. It's the most influential model on the board, as well as the only one you cannot afford to loose. Every other model on the board is expendable. Several armies are built with this in mind.

When you take this and combine it with starting at the 50pt level, it's a bit like putting your feet in concrete and throwing you in the deep end. There's no way in hell you'd have played effectively, and there's no way you'd understand what's going on. You don't learn Chess by playing a grand master, you learn by memorizing what each piece can do, and then start learning how those movements and actions interact to create situations that are favorable to you, and unfavorable to your opponent (ie, pawn traps, etc).

IMHO, whoever sat you down and had you play a 50pt game as an intro is an idiot.

RE: $$, and needing the latest to be competetive
This is just plain wrong. The average game is played at 35pts. Some clubs keep it smaller at 25, others like larger at 50. You'll never see larger than 50 in a tournament, unless it's a special tournament.

Buying a starterbox for $50 nets you ~11 points (more if Cryx or Legion). Depending on what you want in order to flesh that out, you're looking at another $200 or so. After that, any money you spend is for variation in your army, and you'll have that with any table-top miniatures game.

Can you field a viable and competitive 1,500 / 2,000 pt 40k army for $250?

Year after year, battlebox (starter set) warcasters have been winning competitions. PP's release cycle maintains the ideal that no model will ever fall out of usefulness, and you do not need the latest release to be competetive. Sure players flock to the new hotness, and it may be powerful for a while, but that's not PP's fault. It takes the player base some time to figure out how to counter the new hotness. There's always a lag between "Oh, this is broken" and "meh, just make sure you can deal with X, and it's not as bad as it seems".

All that said, if the idea of losing one model ending the game is a turn off, then it might not be for you. If you don't like having one unit rely on another for success, than it might not be for you. It's not for everyone.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Norseman »

Oh I started at Battle box starters, and worked up after that. I proabably have about 50 games under my belt. 10 Learning. 10-15 more enjoyable games. Then I started noticing things that i really hated. Played a bunch more trying get around or over the things I didn't like. Gave up.

The chess thing is a good analogy. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Anyone else agree or disagree with me.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Plarz »

Norseman wrote:Oh I started at Battle box starters, and worked up after that. I proabably have about 50 games under my belt. 10 Learning. 10-15 more enjoyable games. Then I started noticing things that i really hated. Played a bunch more trying get around or over the things I didn't like. Gave up.

The chess thing is a good analogy. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Anyone else agree or disagree with me.

Fair enough. It just may not be a good fit for you. Did you try any other factions? Some of them are better equipped to handle certain parts of the game than others.

If you're interested in trying to get back into it, I'd be happy to help you figure out what's going on and offer suggestions to make it more fun.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by kturock »

Plarz, you explanation of how to play; knowing what your forces can do and your opponents; is the basis for winning in any game.
It's the same for ccg's, minis, board games, anything more than just rolling the dice and scoring higher.

The couple players of WM/H said they like it because it was like 2nd ed 40k. Individuals that actually mattered. Their movements and actions affected the game.

Someone's sig line here sums up 40k the best; it's like Yathzee, he who rolls the most dice, wins.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Plarz »

kturock wrote:Plarz, you explanation of how to play; knowing what your forces can do and your opponents; is the basis for winning in any game.
It's the same for ccg's, minis, board games, anything more than just rolling the dice and scoring higher.
Yes, but with 40k, you can sum up nearly every unit with "X attacks at skill Y, strength Z". And that's how you sum up every unit in the game. Some have special rules, but those tend to simply add or remove dice on a particular roll. You describe units in terms of what they can do.

WM/H has a nearly infinite number of unique rule interactions that can drastically change the role of a particular model on the tabletop. Deneghra1 with 5 arcnodes will play a very, very different game than Deneghra1 with 3 Slayers and no arcnodes. You tend to describe entire armies or sub-sets that build or amplify one another. Very, very rarely do models stand on their own. Because of that, you need to know what every model in the game can do - you don't just have to remember which unit is shooty and which is melee. You have to keep in mind every possible way the opponent's pieces can be combined.

I don't mean to say that knowing what's on the table is exclusive to WM/H - I mean to make the point that it's the biggest factor in the WM/H learning curve.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by kturock »

I'd say it's big in 40k also..
The kool looking minis aren't always the best. IE named characters aren't usually worth the points.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by MagickalMemories »

Forgive me from bringing other games into this discussion, but I see similarities.
I find WH/H to be problematic, as I do Malifaux.
Don't get me wrong... I'll play Malifaux (probably), but only with friends who are as casual as me.

My issues:
40K is a "beer and pretzels" game. Although there are a bunch of codices and different models in each, everything's generally the same. With exception for the occasionl off the wall rule, if you know what each stat stands for, you know what every unit in the game does.
I don't find that to be the case with Mali/PP/H games. they put out a book, and there are 40 or 50 models/units in it. WTF? I'm too casual a player to learn 50 different models/units that I may or may not see, much less have the time to learn their "synergies" (Yes. I know some people hate that word... but it works). As soon as I get used to MY OWN MODELS, a new boox somes out with scores more models.
Rinse. Repeat.
Plus, you don't tend to see a lot of the same thing in Mali/Pp/H armies, that I've noticed. You have 1 (or, occasionally, 2) copies of a models at MOST.
Gah.

I don't have the time, as a 40 yr old father of 4 (2 still at home) who games only on Saturdays, to attempt to memorize all these books, rules, synergies, etc.

As for the cost disagreements... you will never convince me.

Model for model (not army for army/force for force), PP is every bit as expensive as GW.

That said, if I ever played in a d20 group that wanted to Role Play in the iron Kingdoms, I'd totally give it a shot. I think the atmosphere is cool. Same for Malifaux. If they ever put out an RPG, I'm giving it a shot!

Eric
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Stanislav »

I just came into this topic, but I see Plarz has done a good job at explaining it.

He's right, some people just don't have playing a game where that "one" model (caster/lock) is the King and Queen of the Battlefield. However, with 50 games, I don't see all of them hinging on caster kill. Did you play scenarios out of the book or Steam Roller Missions? I regularly win without going for caster kill.

I played GW for many years. About 10 years ago, the price increase shenanigans, ruleset reboots, and discontinuing rules for some models got me to trade all of my stuff away here and went full bore into WM/H. I had played some before that, but really only as a side game. I attended Gamesdays and a host of Indy GT's for 40k and Fantasy and had worked myself up into the top 10 of Merkit's Rankings (independent guy that used to maintain a database of WHFB players in national tournament play). Since then, I do look at the models and think..."Damn that's cool..." but that's as far as it goes.

I have branched off some as I am now a Wyrd Henchmen for Malifaux. I can see where MM sees the similarities. I guess I just like those kinds of games, although Malifaux's Masters are powerful, but not game-ending if you lose one.

And as for price. Admittedly some of the models for Wm/H are expensive. I priced a unit of Skeletons the other day. New, in box, the lastest and all that jazz.... Let me back up my previous statement. Some of the models to include the warcasters are as expensive as GW, but that's about it. Sorry, I remember the days when I could plan out a basic 2000 pt army in WHFB for $300. Not even close nowadays with the discount of an online retailer.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Mr. Bigglesworth »

I found WM/H as being overly simple like 40k. I don't mean the models but the path to win. Kill the most you win, or kill the target and win. The scenarios didn't seem to add any flavor either, just kill in this pocket, move forward then try to kill. I play casual and tourney and if you could see the combos you could win. I played no more than 50 games and lost 2. Even played against the Menoth guy who took 2nd at lock and load. I had a hard time feeling like the game was much different than 40k with random events. The cost was about the same I just priced my 3k 40k army to my 120 points of circle and it was within $100.

I found the problem with both games is whole chunks of army go, then another whole chunk goes. As long as you know the order of movement you can do whatever combos you want unimpeded. It was boring and frustrating to watch half your army be wiped off the board, then the opposing player says go and you do the same back. The dice mechanics of WM/H was much better, instead of buckets of dice.

I see the point of comparing it to chess, but to me chess is boring (I'm not good at it, but I don't think that is the reason I get bored with it). It is repetitive, and that is what the game felt like. I played against each force and it was simple to categorize each one. If I'm playing against this play constructs, if I play against this play hit and run, the long game. Khador is not going to keep up with Circle. It wasn't really chess to me it was a very bland version of rock, paper, scissors. I could sit down read a list and shake hands to know that I either won or lost, before laying my army on the board.

That brings me to my final point the fatal flaw of both 40k and WM/H is the list building mechanics. To be the best you have to make the best list, and list building is probably one of the most sought after skills. Granted how I play one list isn't exactly how some one else would play it, but I could compare lists and go this is what this list will be good at and this is what it will suck at.

40k does all this better by being easier to pick up (beer and pretzel appeal), constant updates (new codices to prevent stagnation), and simple rules.

My bias and game of choice is Malifaux, alternating activations is huge, no units, cheap start up, I own 60% of the line and still cheaper than my whole 40k investment and just a bit more than WM/H. Malifaux is complex but intuitive. I don't need to know what my opponent can do to win, I just need to concentrate on get VP. VP is not about killing, killing can sometimes waste effort and lead to losing even if you have your full crew and your opponent has no models. No machismo needed to win in Malifaux, no catchy one liners to make me feel like a man. Malifaux is rock, paper, scissors style game so it is not for everyone, but rock can smash paper in this strategy while paper will take the win in another. Rule support is better, but needed more than a lot of other games. This is not a post about Malifaux so I leave it at that.

I think the op gave some fair criticism. One last point I have never played quicker miniature games than WM/H, nothing like getting the absolute win in 2-3 turns. With Malifaux I get 2-4 games in a night, with 40k I get 1-2 games, last with WM/H I get up to 5, I think I even got 6 in. The quickness of play is a plus, but also a downside if you are on the receiving end.

If you feel like power gaming WM/H is for you, the rule 5 says just that, be the guy who comes to wreck face (sportsmanship is still asked for). That is not my style...the pound my chest and roar feel. I like to win and I play competitively but I like to do so with finesse not overwhelming force.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by MagickalMemories »

My only criticism with your post, Biggles, is re: 40K (kill the most and win). You couldn't be farther from the truth. Fully 2/3 of the games rely on objectives. I cannot tell you how many games I've been trounced on the whole game, only to win in the end because I owned the objectives. While he killed a LOT of my units, I killed his scoring units and/or made it so taht he could not get to the objectives in time.
Much of 40K is about the strategy behind your play and does not rely on killing the most enemy models (though, granted, it helps lol).

Then again, an Annihilation game is all about Kill Points. So, for that 1/3 of the time, you're absolutely right.

Eric
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Mr. Bigglesworth »

2 of the main strategies is objective based, but I say killing is winning because the armies really don't have passive abilities. You either move shoot assualt, move move, or move assault. Not like I can paralyze the model or make it unfriendly or some other formulating rule.

I don't hate 40k I think it is interesting and if I had time for two games I would play malifaux and 40k but as it is I have time for one and the simple killing is not very thoughtful. Maybe the metas I played in strategy wasn't key but I felt most of my wins were done through slaughter my opponent and score the only point. I didn't play in a lot of metas with 40k so my experience might have been jaded by the few I did.

I still stand killing is the primary basis of the current rules for winning. I do like the expansion set scenarios from planet strike and city of death. I thought they added interesting elements. Then again i felt mist the strategy in the game is in list building not playing. That criticism could be said for em/m too.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by MagickalMemories »

Well, I can't agree that the primary basis for winning is killing, but:
...the armies really don't have passive abilities. You either move shoot assualt, move move, or move assault. Not like I can paralyze the model or make it unfriendly or some other formulating rule.
This is basically correct, and I can't see any fault in your logic there. Even many of the psychic abilities have to be done "as shooting" or in HtH.

Eric
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Forsaken Poptart »

MagickalMemories wrote:My only criticism with your post, Biggles, is re: 40K (kill the most and win). You couldn't be farther from the truth. Fully 2/3 of the games rely on objectives. I cannot tell you how many games I've been trounced on the whole game, only to win in the end because I owned the objectives. While he killed a LOT of my units, I killed his scoring units and/or made it so taht he could not get to the objectives in time.
Much of 40K is about the strategy behind your play and does not rely on killing the most enemy models (though, granted, it helps lol).

Then again, an Annihilation game is all about Kill Points. So, for that 1/3 of the time, you're absolutely right.

Eric
The same can be said for Warmachine, if you use the scenarios in the books; I've won games with both warcasters left on the table, hell- I've won games with no casualties on either side (very weird corner case, but there you have it). I would argue that the objective games in WM are more intensive because there are some pieces you simply cannot afford to lose, so you have to balance your aggression with not overcommitting.

Also, regarding the 'page 5 mentality'- it does not stipulate anything about crushing new players so badly that they lose all interest, nor does it say that kicking the tar out of somebody less skilled is a desireable trait. If your opponent isn't teaching you anything, just whipping you across the board then hiding behind 'play like you've got a pair', get a new opponent.
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