BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker - Resolved

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squirrelowar ( -2 )
Apprentice Trader
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:06 pm

BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker - Resolved

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:12 am

Hi guys, here is the issue.

I swapped my space marine bike army for Cj's skaven army. During the trade talks he said he had IoB warlords that were to be stormvermin. At first he said they needed some work but later, after checking the models, he said they needed no converting to be counts as stormvermin. So welcomed the trade and everything was good. Until they arrived today. After looking at these models up close, for the first time, it was immediately apparent that the warlords can't be formed into ranks without major reposing/rebuilding. When I asked Cj about this his response was, reposing/remodeling isn't converting and it's not his problem. The issue is they were traded at a high price as counts as stormvermin but if they can't be ranked up they are useless for whfb. I believe this was at best a failure to accurately represent his models and at worst a lie to push a trade that he was coming up short on.

Messages as follows(this is long):
space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:50 pm
by Siegebeast2142
Hey, I have a fairly large skaven army I'd like to trade for it. I have about 200 clan rats, the skaven main lord, a grey seer, a doom wheel, about a dozen rat ogres, several weapons teams, mostly warp fire thrower and poisoned wind globadiers, but I have one tunneling team as well. I have something like 30 warlords. I also have six of the infantry globe throwers.

I'd like to trade for your entire space marine lot.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:13 pm
by squirrelowar
How much, if any, of the lot is IoB?
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:20 pm
by Siegebeast2142
Most of the ogres, special weapons teams and warlords, and probably half the clan rats. Most of it is assembled, except warlords. Primed or no point on virtually everything. The infantry globe throwers is the only unit painted.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:40 pm
by squirrelowar
Well I'm definitely interested in skaven. What are the warlords you are mention? Are those stormvermin or another unit, I'm unfamiliar. The main hesitation I have would be the value of the 2 lots. The space marine lot is $840, can you get me a run down of the retail of the skaven? I can't really add it up since I don't know what is IoB.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:02 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

The warlords are skaven models that can be hero's or lords. The guy that I got the stuff from was planning on converting them into storm vermin, but he never got around to it. The skaven lord I mentioned is lord skrulk.

Rat ogres with the pack masters are 25 per 2 ogres and 1 master, $150
Clan rats are 35 per 20, $350
Doom wheel $30
At least 6 weapons teams at 15 per team, $90
Skaven warlords, isle of blood, $10/model, >20, $200
Poisoned wind globadiers, 15x6, $90

Total a little over $900.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:04 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Sorry, only five globadiers, not six
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:54 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Yeah, I don't think I'm comfortable with that pricing. You are pricing starter set models as if they are full retail multi part plastic kits. I see two ways to price them fair. You take the average of recent ebay sale or you divide up the actual retail cost of IoB. Either on I think will change that total quite a bit. Just based off the number of things you have it seems like you have 5 sets of IoB stuff but without pics I couldn't say for sure.

Just a quick glance at ebay:
clanrats at $1 each
warlords at $5, honestly though if they are meant to be stormvermin I would price them as such. As stormvermin I see a use and would pay that price, as heroes I have no interest in paying for 30 of a single pose hero.
rat ogres $10
Pack master $1
weapon teams $3

so if everything is IoB you are looking at:
200 Clanrats = $200
12 rat ogres + pack master= $66
20 warlords = $50 (priced as new box stormvermin)
6 weapon teams = $18
doom wheel = $30
poisoned wind($10 for 1) = $50
Lord Skrolk = $15
Grey seer = $15

That would put that total at $444. Which it could be a little higher if some of it is multi part instead of IoB.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:22 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

For the clan rats, I've got a small container full of additional hand weapons/spears, so you should be able to out them out either way. Weapons teams and the globadiers are both sold on gw for $15/ea. Globes don't come from iob, and the weapons teams are the exact same.

On your lot, could you walk me through a quick recap of how you got to 840? A quick count through gws site got me to high 700s
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:07 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

First off: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ska ... Globadiers
As far as I can tell IoB is the only place you can get the warp fire thrower and poisoned wind mortar. If you see these on the gw site please link me. If you have pics that could help some too. Email is squirrelowar@outlook.com

My lot:
36 bikes - 3/$40 = $480
3 thunderfire cannons 1/$56 = $168
2 storm talons 1/45.5 = $91
1 rhino = $37.25
5 scouts = $25
5 of the above bikes are built to be a full command squad with special weapons and apothecary(bodies and shoulders are command squad) Command squad box = $35

That comes out to $836.25 and that doesn't included the chapter master conversion(not a huge job just different helm, thunder hammer, and shield eternal attached to bike)

If none of the weapon teams are from IoB then that would make your total $516, still a pretty big gap.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:18 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

A big cause for the gap would be using eBay for my stuff, and full retail for yours. I'm okay with trading in your favor, which what we currently have I feel is... But I'm not going to trade up 150%, which is roughly what you are asking me to do with eBay prices
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:25 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Well I don't know any other way to price starter set models. If you just say it's 5 sets of IoB plus extras you'll end up around $350 and that is even worse. I've just never seen anyone price starter set models at a full retail price.

Like I said I'm interested but it doesn't really seem like we are on the same page as far as starter stuff is concerned
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:27 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Email? I'll send the pics
Your only reason for pricing 'starter models' lower is because they aren't full kits... Your bikes are already built, I'm assuming you are just trading what is listed, and not any left over parts, which puts them in the same state as my models... Built the way I played them, with no alternate ways to play them WYSIWYG.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:41 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

My email is squirrelowar@outlook.com.

I posted a question on starter set pricing in the general gw forum here on bartertown to see how others usually set prices. I'm not trying to screw anyone and if I'm wrong on how I am pricing stuff then I'm more then willing to try something else.

My point of view is this, IoB contains:
Skaven Warlord
Skaven Warlock Engineer
40 Skaven Clanrats
Skaven Master Moulder
2 Skaven Rat Ogres
Skaven Warpfire Thrower
Skaven Poisoned Wind Mortar

That is half the models in a $99 box so if we ignore the rulebook and stuff then that is $50 worth of stuff and makes up around 1/5th of what you are offering. In my lot, 1 cannon is $56, 3 bikes are $40, a storm talon is $45. That just doesn't seem like it's a fair trade to but full multi part retail value on those models and turn that $50 lot into $150. That is why I usually go off the average of recent ebay sales. It gets you a higher price than just saying retail in half the starter cost. Also like I said before if some of it isn't IoB models then I am fine giving full retail in trade
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:46 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

I'm not the first person to value starter models as lower. Generally they are lower because they all are posed the same, such as the black reach marines. Static positioning, which I know bikes are also but like I pointed out, retail on 3 bikes is 40, for the price of 2.5 sets of bikes I can but a full set of IoB and also end up with a mess of high elves.

Regardless of any of this, like I said I'm not looking to screw anyone. You offered me a lot, which i'm interested in, but we are in quite different prices on the lot. This might just be a agree to disagree moment and if that is the case I wish you all the luck in moving your skaven army.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:05 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

It may end up having to be that... But, again, I'd argue against full retail on the bikes, be cause I would,'t be getting all the extra weapons/heads/shoulder pads and the like. I have over 2500 points of skaven... It's an army you are interested in, unpainted, with plenty of troops. I also have the army book and rulebook I am including
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:15 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

It is a large lot of skaven. Unfortunately I will have to pass at this time. I am very interested in skaven and I do like your lot, the problem besides the price is that outside of the doom wheel it doesn't really have any of the other center piece models I am looking for, abomination, screaming bell, artillery ect. Also I'm not sure that I can convert 20-30 lords to be proper stormvermin.

So with all that considered I don't think a straight army swap would work out for me. If anything changes though feel free to send me another offer. When I do trades I definitely want us both to be happy in the end.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:15 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I'd be willing to pay shipping both ways. If you ship flat rate w/USPS, i,'all include a money order with my shipment to cover what you paid
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:22 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

What if I bought a box of storm vermin? Looking at the spruces on gws site, it looks like they come w/2 different kinds of weapons options, which would give you the arms for the warlord conversions
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:33 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

If that isn't acceptable, what would you want me to add to make a trade
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:40 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

That would definitely help with the stormvermin. Ideally I'd like either models or money to even out the trade. The things that I'd be most interested in is another doom wheel, abomination, and screaming bell. That is a good chunk of money though. Let me do some thinking on it and if you are still interested you can think on it too and we'll see if we can work something out
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:45 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I'd be willing to pick up stormvermin and a doomwheel, or an abomination, or the bell, but I wouldn't be able to cover your shipping at that point. If adding one of those three options gets us close enough in your eyes, then let me know which one works best for you and I'd be willing to move forward
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:02 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

I'll give it some thought and I will get back to you. I got the pics and things look fine from what I can see. If we decided to proceed with a trade we can exchange full pics of everything
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:09 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Alright so I've been giving it some thought and I really do wanna make this trade with you. I want a skaven army. I got a couple replies on my posted question, not a flood of replies but enough to reinforce what I already knew from my experience in this hobby.
viewtopic.php?f=106&t=248716
If you have anything to add, I welcome you to post it in there. I would like to see what they think, because while I don't agree and have always trade/sold starter models for less(even my own) I can see and understand your point of view.

With that said I propose the following. I realize it is probably more than you want to do but it's what i'm comfortable with at the moment. I just want to emphasize that I do want to complete this trade with you.

I am fuzzy on some of your model count like the warlords went from 30 to 20 so we'll obviously need a full count
200 Clanrats
12 rat ogres + pack masters
20 warlords
6 weapon teams
Doomwheel
5 poisoned wind globes
Lord Skrolk
Grey seer
Skaven army book
Whfb rule book
Box of stormvermin
Doom wheel kit
Either a Hellpit Abom. kit or Screaming bell/plague fur kit

for:

34 bikes
Captian on bike
Chapter master on bike(thunder hammer/shield eternal)
2 storm talons
3 thunderfire cannons
Nos scouts
Nos rhino(missing top hatch
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:10 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I'll get you a full count when I get home later today. I'm not willing to pay in an extra $150 or so into this trade to get it done. I'd be willing to do... maybe $80... But, I'll get you an exact count, and we can go from there. Could you send pics of your models to Hookerc@usa.com, please
e: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:19 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Okay, well I can buy warhammer stuff local at a discount so that could help with the cost if you want to do paypal or something instead of actually getting the models yourself. I thought maybe you had a way to get models cheaper as well, hence offering models as opposed to cash.

Yes I will send pics shortly. If you are able to can you take some pics of the units when you are doing the count? That way I can see them out of the bags
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:56 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

I sent some pics of the army. If you need further pics of anything let me know
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:56 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Do any bikes have special weapons? How many of each?
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:43 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

They all have melta guns, I believe there are 11 in total. All 5 command squad models have one and then there are 6 regular bikers with them. I was gonna buy them all grav guns but I have never gotten around to it
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:45 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I'm going through and getting pictures now. The warlords don't need any converting to be storm vermin, both are armed w/halbreds and hand weapons.

As I'm taking pictures and counting models, I thought of a way we might be able to comprimise on the clan rats worth... You value them a buck a piece, and me at a buck and a quarter. Would you be willing to call it a buck and a dime each
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:53 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Awesome that will make that easy then. I have no problems with going to $1.10 a rat.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:47 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Glad I still have all my plasma guns then! That's how I'm going to be playing them.

Here is the count. All models that I have that can come from an iob box, did come from an iob box.

The clan rats can also be used as slaves, AFAIK, they are the same box/weapon load out.

Model # times value = total

Clan rats 261 x 1.10 = 287
Rat ogres 10 x 10 = 100
Warp fire throwers 5x3=15
Poisoned wind mortars 5x3=15
Packmaster 5x1=5
Warlord assembled painted 1x5=5
Engineers 7 x 2 (sell on eBay for four each, but figure you would have same problem as the warlords. I use most of them as champion models.)=14
Nos iob warlords to count as storm vermin 57 x 2.5=142
Warp grinder 1 x 15 = 15
Poisoned wind globadiers 5x10=50
Pack master skweel 1x15=15
Lord skrulk 1x15=15
Grey seer 1x15=15
Doom wheel 1x30=30

Total for me is at 723, not including mini rulebook or army book. 33 for the army book, and last sold eBay mini rulebook was 15. Brings me up to 771.

I really don't need the rhino. If you are willing to drop the rhino, we come to 771 me to just under 800 for you. How does that sound to you?
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:57 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Pics sent to the email you used to mail me
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:22 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

I think we are coming up a lot closer now. Would you be willing to leave the rhino in and add in $50? That at least lets me buy one of the big kits that I'm looking for and it puts us almost dead even.

From what I can see in the pics, it looks like some of the army is partially assembled. Are you sure that all the needed weapons are accounted for? Also is there any damage that you saw when you were getting a count?

Now on the trade, if we do in fact come to terms, and it looks like we will. I would like us to ship armies at the same time, you are welcome to pick a day that is most convenient for you and we will both ship on that day. This is mainly based on the fact that it is very hard for me to verify an sort detail on your lot based on pics(it's a ton of models) so I would like as little time sitting in the wind as possible. I do have some feedback and you have seen pics of my army and I can take whatever custom pic you need to prove the army is in my possession.

Lastly I understand that things can break in shipping and I don't have a problem with that. I do always like to ship priority mail, the cost is reasonable, it's fast, and it come with $50 in insurance. Which isn't a huge amount but can definitely help if we run into any major issues in transit. I don't expect this, I've been trading through the mail for 11 years now and I have never had anything strange come up.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:33 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Sure, I can do the fifty. It looks like there are enough arms to fill in the clan rats w/out them. A couple weapon tips are broken off on the clan rats.. One, maybe two, only.I would be fine shipping same day, but I would feel more comfortable waiting to ship until I got the confirmation number from you. If it came early enough in the day, I'd ship that day as well, otherwise the next morning. I too ship flat rate priority.

I'll get a money order and include it with the models.


This all sound fair to you?
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:48 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Awesome, that sounds great. I just don't want to be fixing 100+ broken spears lol. I don't mind sending you tracking first, I just feel everything should be as square as possible on large lots like this. I can ship anytime this week as soon as tomorrow. Just let me know when is good for you, as you have far more models to pack than me.

A money order works fine for me.(please just leave the pay to blank, that way either myself or my wife can put it in the bank as we don't share accounts)

Sounds to me like we have a deal.

My address is: Address deleted
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:12 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Address deleted
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:53 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Hey I had some problems today and will be shipping first thing tomorrow morning. I will send you the tracking info and then you can ship at your earliest convenience.

Sorry about this sadly it couldn't be help, medical related and such.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:24 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

No worries. If you ship around this time tomorrow or before, I'll be able to ship as well
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:01 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Hey, got the models today. Thanks! Everything arrived mostly intact. Just got some arms/bodies to fix. What color did you use for the green? The cannons need some touch ups.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:19 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Its gw sotek green. Glad everything made it and glad you like it
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:36 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I'm also only counting 33, not including chapter master/captain. Could you check to see if one forgot to make it into the bag?

I'm also missing three backpacks. The nub they glue onto is painted over, I'm assuming you don't have those?
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:46 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

I will double check my stuff but I believe everything made it into the box. It went straight from my foam to the box. It is possible that I miscounted by 1 bike, or counted the captain when I counted and then typed it up wrong. The backpacks were most likely never there since it is painted over, if you need them I might be able to find them in bits if you don't have any. If these pose a large problem to you then we can talk about a remedy after the skaven get here.

I do apologize if I miscounted though. The backpacks is definitely probably something I overlooked, I've always hated marine backpacks so never paid much attention to them
STAFF EDIT to insert missing message
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:53 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142
I got the skaven in the mail today. Packing worked great, there were a few broken pieces but nothing major. I have been able to sort through and do a count and I'm missing a couple things.

Missing:
Grey seer(there is a plague priest, don't know if you confused the two.)
warp grinder

The second and greater issue are the warlords. You had told me that these could be used as stormvermin without issue. They are impossible to rank up together. The wide pose means that they catch on each other and prevent them from being formed in ranks, and as such makes them useless as stormvermin. This part is a big deal to me because stormvermin were something that I needed included and we changed from you providing a box of them when you told me you had 50+ of these that would work as stormvermin. They definitely do have the right weapons, halberd and hand weapon, but they can't rank. The above missing models is a smaller issue but this warlord/stormvermin doesn't work for me at all. As it stands at the moment I am down $142 in models.

I am happy to work out a solution with you that can work for us both. So let me know what you think and any ideas you have for a possible solution.

Also I know you said there was a bike and some packs missing in my lot so I am happy to call the missing warp grinder a wash against those things

Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:11 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I only said they don't need any conversions because they have the right weapons. All you need is some reposing, or alternating high base/low base to be able to rank and file them. Sorry about confusing the plague priest/grey seer.

There is a long skinny base in there that I thought to be a warp grinder team, but I might have been mistaken about what that model was, too. If I remember correctly, the model in front has some sort of trident/Bident looking thing. What is it if it isn't a warp grinder?
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:27 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

This is a warp grinder team: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ska ... eapon-Team
The model you are talking about is one of the IoB handlers, 2 giant rats, and a night goblin glued to a base. Like I said those aren't huge issues, mistakes can happen and I'm fine calling it a wash.

Here is what you said about the warlord/stormvermin:
Sent: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:45 pm
by Siegebeast2142

I'm going through and getting pictures now. The warlords don't need any converting to be storm vermin, both are armed w/halbreds and hand weapons.

As I'm taking pictures and counting models, I thought of a way we might be able to comprimise on the clan rats worth... You value them a buck a piece, and me at a buck and a quarter. Would you be willing to call it a buck and a dime each?


I can see the weapon comment but you clearly said they don't need any converting to be stormvermin. I don't have the modeling ability to repose them, as far as I can tell that would be a major green stuff task. Also high/low bases won't do anything to make them rank up. The arms stick straight out to the side and still block each other from getting base to base. I'm not suggesting that you reimburse $142 in models but we definitely need to figure something out here. We traded $142 worth of counts as stormvermin that don't work as stormvermin
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:37 pm
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

We have different definitions of converting then. Converting would be taking different arms/weapons/heads and the like. What I'm suggesting you do is modeling work.

I'm fine calling it square as well. Good luck with those warlords... If you take the time to repose them, they'll be pretty awesome and make a cool center piece for an army.

Thanks for the trade!
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:45 pm
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

The warpgrinder/grey seer is square with the missing bike and 3 packs.

The warlords are not square. They do not work as stormvermin in any fashionable way. When you say the need no converting, that doesn't mean swapping arms, heads, reposing, or being forced to base at extreme heights to rank them up. Like I said, I am willing to work out a solution with you.

As it stands I feel that you grossly misrepresented these models. You said they work as stormvermin with no converting, they clearly do not. If you are unwilling to try and come to some agreeable terms then I will have no choice but to take this to the bad trader forums. I really don't want to as other than this the lot looks good, I will not just call a $142 misrepresentation square
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:12 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

There was absolutely no misrepresentation. You had pictures of completed warlords, and you knew exactly what you were getting
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:19 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Seems pretty clear to me. You claimed they would work as stormvermin with no needed conversions. They don't work as stormvermin at all. I'm not saying you intentionally lied but you clearly didn't check the information you were giving about your models. Bartertown rule 4a say you are responsible for accurately describing your models. You described the warlords as counts as stormvermin with no conversion needed. That was false.

I don't appreciate being misled and you wouldn't either. I am not okay just accepting the useless models you sent me. I will work with you to make this right but as it stands you screwed me on $142 worth of models. This needs to be fixed by either providing stormvermin, money to buy them, or some other equal compensation. Once you square the trade I will even ship you back your warlords to do as you please with them. Let me know how you want to proceed.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:30 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

The warlords were listed at trade value fifty. I'll take the warlords and forty back, and you can use the fifty remaining of that 140 to buy your NiB vermin. Posing models =/= conversions. I'm sorry, but I'm not letting you gouge me anymore
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:48 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

Maybe you should reread through our trade. Especially where you set the value of your stuff. I worked with you and over valued you stuff so we could get a deal made and that was on the understanding that the warlords would be usable as rank and file stormvermin. The numbers you are quoting don't make any sense what so ever. You valued each warlord at $2.5. I don't think attempting to get what you were promised is "gouging" you. You made a mistake and I'd like you to own up to it. I don't expect you to pay me the full difference. That's why I said I'd work with you.

Saying modeling =/= converting makes it sound like intentionally screwed me. It sounds like you used muddled definitions to misled. If I am forced to chop a model up and green stuff it back together to completely alter the model, I think it is reasonable to say that would fall into converting a model.

I accept some responsibility here. I should have looked into the warlord model further since I've never seen one in person. Had I maybe I would have noticed the inability to rank multiple of them. I instead took you at your word, and what you were telling me about your models was correct. I was wrong.

Here is a propsed solution: you send me 2 boxes of stormvermin or $90. Once that is received I will send you your warlords back and the trade will be considered square.

Nos iob warlords to count as storm vermin 57 x 2.5=142
squirrelowar (6)
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Posts: 21
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Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:54 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

I don't think you need to use any green stuff to pose the arms in a forward facing position. I'mnot sending you anymore money or models because you refuse to use the models in the way which we agreed. It is not my problem that you can' figure out how to make models sit next to each other in a formation. Asking me to give you more money because you changed your mind about the warlords is what I would consider gouging
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:06 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

There was no mind change. You lied about their use. You said no converting needed. That was a lie and you apparently knew it when you said it. Nowhere in the trade discussions did you say the need to be cut up and reposed. You say they are good to go, no problems. That is false and that is what I believe is a violation of rule 4a and I'm not just gonna sit by and let you screw me.

Since you refuse to even attempt to come to terms. I will be posting a btr in the morning. In the mean time if you want to work something out before then let me know.

I hope I see a reasonable response from you before then
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:14 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

You don't have to cut them up... Beyond cutting them off the sprue. Feel free to post a btr, I'll fight it. I did nothing wrong. I didn't mislead you in any way, I even sent you pictures of what they look like completed. I'd be willing to bet that if you don't repose them, you'd be able to rotate every even row 90 degrees so they don't clash.

My point is, you still have plenty of options.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:23 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

Honestly, if it never occurred to you throughout trade negotiations that they wouldn't stand side by side, home do you expect someone else to notice it?

If the models were all already built, yes, I should have known, but all the storm vermin warlords are still no
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:26 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

This is ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself for conducting trades this way. I knew several times I should walk away from this trade with you but I went against my better judgement and you burned me. I will pursue every means I have here. It just isn't right to take someones army and stick them with crap and tell them "oh not my problem" while you defend yourself with shady semantics. I'm sure you will fight it and who knows you might win but it won't change the fact that you screwed me and you could care less. You lied, plan and simple.

A reasonable and fair person would try and square a sour deal. A cheat denies everything and says "not my problem."

I'll still give you till the morning to think it through.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:28 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

A cheat? The models are perfectly acceptable to use as storm vermin when assembled. I have no wrongs to right here
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:29 am
From: squirrelowar(6)
To: Siegebeast2142

There are 3 built ones and these were your models. You had them in front of you. If you had taken time to verify your own info this wouldn't have happened. You are responsible for accurately describing your models. You didn't do that. That is why we are having this problem.
Re: space marine bikes
Sent: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:45 am
From: Siegebeast2142(22)
To: squirrelowar

They were very accurately described. Nos/assembled/painted, as you have received them, as they were pictured. You are just having traders remorse, and wish you would have gotten a better deal. Sorry, deal is done. What you saw is what you got.

So those are the messages. As you see early on he talks about converting warlords into stormvermin then later on says no converting needed. He also says the warlords are perfectly acceptable stormvermin despite the fact that they are impossible to rank up without converting. In my eyes this is a clear misrepresentation of his models and a violation of rule 4a. I have expressed my willingness to work this out with him and I've offered some solutions but in his opinion he did no wrong. I am very happy with the rest of the skaven, and he's happy with the bikes, I'm just not willing to take a $142 hit based on a misrepresentation.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:30 am

There was no misrepresentation. You got pictures of everything. I told you what condition it is in. You received it as described.

I'd like this slanderous thread deleted.

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Posts: 156
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:39 am

Also, viewtopic.php?t=45472

The definition of legitimate complaint will meet at least 3 of the 4 additional criteria after the first listed below :
If you have not received your part of the trade/purchase within a reasonable time after you've sent what you agreed to,
If you have tried contacting the other party and they have not replied to your satisfaction within a reasonable time,
If they are being deceptive (and you can prove it) or otherwise ignoring you,
If you don't get what you bought,
If the items arrive in a different condition than what they were promised (ie damaged or pieces missing)

As a side note, he HAS received his half of the trade.

squirrelowar ( -2 )
Apprentice Trader
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:06 pm

Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:55 pm

I won't have a long drawn out argument in this. I think the above messages have the proof of what I said in them.

I will point out a couple things. This:viewtopic.php?f=103&t=71 is the BTR rule thread posted in the header of the forums. Its says the following:
The definition of legitimate complaint: If you have not received your part of the trade/purchase within a reasonable time after you've sent what you agreed to, if you don't get what you bought, if the items arrive in a different condition than what they were promised (ie damaged or pieces missing), and of course if the other person lied about something; all these are legitimate reasons to complain. If another trader is rude, this is not the place.
I bolded the relevant part.

As I've said above I was led to believe the warlords would be a suitable counts as for stormvermin, with no needed conversion. What I got were a bunch of models that, while share the same weapons, can't be put in ranks and therefore can't be used as rank and file troops. This was a lie, intentional or accidental, the result is the same, what I was promised is not what I recieved.

Thanks for taking the time to read this all, I know it's very long.

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Posts: 156
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Location: Washington

Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:34 pm

What about them makes them not suitable as counts as storm vermin? They have the right weapons, he right armor, the right bases size.

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3eland ( 70 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by 3eland » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:37 pm

Couple things.

a) Please post said pictures as they are a vital part of the BTR (re: Proof).

b) Modelling IS part of conversion. If you are greenstuffing/epoxying something (not filling gaps but actually scultping and modelling it) you are converting said piece.

c) I must have missed somewhere about the Warlords, are they the IoB ones? Because I know from handling my own they won't properly rank and file without conversion.

d) Please do not argue with each other. It clutters it up and is highly annoying to those trying to help.
~Ryan~
I'm like superman, but without the super.

The rules for Bartertown can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470
Helpful guide for sending packages to Canada: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=123125

2019 W/L/T ratios:

40k
Eldar - 9/5/0 ~ Tyranids - 7/4/1

AOS
Dispossessed - 0/2/0 ~ Fyreslayers - 3/2/0 ~ Idoneth - 3/2/0
KO - 0/3/0 ~ Sylvaneth - 0/0/0

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:41 pm
Location: Washington

Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:47 pm

He doesn't have to use green stuff to sculpt. He can mount the arms in a forward facing charge type look, and he'd only have to fill in a small gap in the shoulder. He could also very where he glues the models to the bases so that they have a subtle enough difference to not clash weapons, but still rank and file normally.
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Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Posts: 156
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:49 pm

And the stack of fifty new on sprue
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squirrelowar ( -2 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:54 pm

There were 5 pictures sent to me. This is the only one that contains a warlord model in it.

Yes they are the IoB warlords, there are 57 in total, 54 nos, 3 built. The picture shows one warlord in the back. Had he pictured another beside it then it would be obvious that they would not rank. I see no way to repose them without doing extensive remodelling on them. Which is in direct contridiction to him telling me that they need no conversion.
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squirrelowar ( -2 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:01 pm

Looking in my email there were also 5 additional pictures he sent from a second email address. The close up pic he just posted was not one of the 10 pics sent to me. The picture I posted was the only pic that contained a built IoB warlord in it. Had the other built warlords(that weren't in the description) been included in the photo then we wouldn't be having this issue.

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:11 pm

You only see no way because you want more money. I've given you two ways to make them work. One where you can assemble them as intended, and the other where you can change the facing of the arms, which we know to be not converting due to 3elands post.

Now you are mad at me for including EXTRA models? First time for everything, I guess. Sorry I failed to mention that I found a couple extra warlords while packing them up and included them for free.

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:16 pm

They have the same problem forward facing spears have when you try to line them up exactly: the weapons get in the way. The easiest way to fix that is to slightly alter where you place them on the base so the weapons don't get in the way.

squirrelowar ( -2 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by squirrelowar » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:19 pm

The close up pic he just posted also proves that he lied. In the talks he says there are 57 nos IoB warlords and 1 built and painted. That is what I recieved pics showing. If you look that the details of the pic he posted and the one he sent me, they were taken on the same day(1-6-15) and around the same time.(painted 3:31, close up 3:48)

This proves that he had more than one built IoB warlord on hand and would have known they would not rank up without serious remodeling. Which makes his statement about no conversions needed, completely false.

I do not feel that I should be required to chop up models that were stated to be counts as with no conversions. The only thing I am looking for is what I was promised, models that can be used as stormvermin without the need to convert them.

Again thanks for taking the time to help out and any assistance and/or advice is appreciated.

Siegebeast2142 ( 52 )
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Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:41 pm
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by Siegebeast2142 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:27 pm

Just because I have warlords built does not mean that I ever put them next to each other. Gluing them onto your bases with some slightly forward and some slightly back is not "chopping them up". It's gluing models to bases, which you have to do anyways to play the models.

Also, gluing the arms forward and filling in a gap doesn't require you to "chop them all up". I'd be willing to bet that you could model them with weapons straight up and down w/out more than minor green stuff gap filling.

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3eland ( 70 )
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Re: BTR Siegebeast2142 CJ Hooker

Post by 3eland » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:29 pm

Here is my issue with this Warlord into Stormvermin thing.

Island of Blood models come in snap-fit poses. The Warlord (I have two of my own) comes in two pieces, the body and the arms (attached to the front breastplate)

Like this:
Warhammer-Bitz-Island-of-Blood-Skaven-Warlord-Skreet-Verminkin_b3.jpg

Without cutting off the arms to repose, there is no way you can repose the weapons in any way. Also, unless you hacksaw the body, you cannot remove it from the stone (and the stone takes up the entire base).

Therefore, in my own personal (not official staff) opinion, there is no way the OP could make 57 Warlords rank and file without heavy converting.

Ryan
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~Ryan~
I'm like superman, but without the super.

The rules for Bartertown can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470
Helpful guide for sending packages to Canada: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=123125

2019 W/L/T ratios:

40k
Eldar - 9/5/0 ~ Tyranids - 7/4/1

AOS
Dispossessed - 0/2/0 ~ Fyreslayers - 3/2/0 ~ Idoneth - 3/2/0
KO - 0/3/0 ~ Sylvaneth - 0/0/0

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