Re: Bad Trader: hollowhelm (Ken Wei)
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:05 pm
@s_o_r_r_o_w: I think your appraisal of this incident is grossly inaccurate. Let's look at the facts that have been provided and consider both hollowhelm's actions and my actions.
Let's start by looking at hollowhelm's actions:
Snarkhunter: "This looks like: sorc on bull, 3 demonsmiths, 10 IG, 3 IG command, and a magma cannon. Is everything else new on sprue?"
hollowhelm: "Yeah those are the only ones that I assembled I think as I kept them on my shelf, everything else is in a box downstairs."
*The truth is that the Incarnate Elemental of Fire was also assembled. This is a ~$113 model who's value is dramatically different depending on whether it is new on sprue or assembled.
Snarkhunter: "Are there bases for everything?"
hollowhelm: "The cannons and stuff never came with bases but everything else has bases."
*The truth is that Drazhoath the Ashen and the Incarnate Elemental of Fire are both missing their bases, which would cost about $10 on ebay to replace.
hollowhelm: "I can have my girlfriend pack the stuff up as ship tmr morning if you can get payment in today."
hollowhelm: "I had my wife pack this."
*It isn't directly relevant to the trade, but there is definitely some inconsistency in what hollowhelm is saying here.
hollowhelm on Nov 6: "Payment received. Will ship tomorrow. Thanks!"
hollowhelm on Nov 8: "Got it sent"
*He promised to ship on Nov 7, but did not until Nov 8.
hollowhelm: "I will make sure that everything is securely packaged. Will put in one box."
hollowhelm: "The dread quake was coming in the mail as we negotiated and should be here shortly. I stated that in the post that I made when I was selling these. I will ship that when it arrives no problem."
hollowhelm: " I bought these as a lot from ebay a while back."
*He never stated anything about sending part of the shipment later, in fact, he said it would all be sent in one box. Also, if he bought everything a while back as a lot from ebay, then why was he waiting on the dreadquake?
hollowhelm: "The guy I bought from told me that it was just a miscast and that they're supposed to be like that."
*He initiated a trade for the models and never warned his trade partner about this conversation with his supplier? Are we supposed to believe that he wasn't trying to cheat his trade partner?
hollowhelm: "Refunded through PayPal."
*Not true. In fact he simply plead no contest or equivalent to my paypal claim. The money was not, and has not been, refunded to my account (see the email from PayPal in my previous post). A promise has been made by PayPal that the money will be refunded if I submit a tracking # and a signature upon delivery for sending the models back to hollowhelm, at my cost.
Summary: It is clear that hollowhelm acted in bad faith from the beginning. He omitted important information that the models were "miscast", he made false statements about the condition of the models, he promised bases for the models and failed to deliver, and after failing to deliver portions of the shipment - tried to claim that he had given forewarning that the remaining goods would be delivered later.
Now for my actions:
Snarkhunter: "Considering your rating of 0 (welcome to barter town, btw), could we do half the $ now and half upon delivery?"
hollowhelm: " I cannot do half half as I have alot of experience on Dakkadakka + this is alot of stuff."
Snarkhunter: "Payment has been sent by paypal."
*Although dealing with a new trader with a rating of Zero, I offered to pay half before shipment and half after. Bartertown "rules" would have the person with the lower rating (hollowhelm) ship first. When he refused, I agreed to pay him in full prior to shipment.
hollowhelm: "Payment received."
*I provided my side of the deal exactly as promised and within one hour of being provided with his PayPal information.
Snarkhunter: "I received the package today, and I'm not very happy. ... I'd like to know what you suggest in order to resolve these issues."
Snarkhunter: "Please let me know when the dreadquake arrives. Don't worry about the bases, as long as you are able to send me the dreadquake."
*When my initial inventory showed irregularities in the condition of the assembled models and the fact that a couple of big models were missing and an extra model included, I communicated politely and reasonably with my trade partner, offering him the chance to suggest a solution. When offered a solution, I was willing to work with him even though it was less than the deal we had originally agreed upon.
I then had to opportunity to make a closer inspection of the models, and it became clear that the models could be counterfeit. I chose to research this possibility before making any accusations, which led me to contact ForgeWorld for their opinion. I spent time taking photos, emailing them, researching my protections on PayPal which may be needed if these items are counterfeit, and also researching the rules on Bartertown as they may apply. Upon ForgeWorld's confirmation that the models appear to be recast, I spent time preparing a proper Bad Trade Report and posted it. Then I filed a claim on PayPal as the recepient of counterfiet items (a subcategory of SNAD). The fact that the models are counterfeit precludes a discussion with the seller and an attempt to work it out.
Since hollowhelm involved me in this situation, I have had to spend a considerable amount of my time to communicate with ForgeWorld, PayPal and to properly include all of the various communications into a legible BTR format.
I have continued to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, despite his numerous falsehoods, even providing him with information to help him not be fooled by recasts in the future.
I have even worked out a solution where everyone does okay: The seller gets to keep the money (since I will not be sending the models back to him), I get real ForgeWorld models, and ForgeWorld gets some recasts off the market and some information towards trying to stop their production.
Throughout this process, from my initial communication with hollowhelm, I have been an honest trader willing to give my trade partner more than a reasonable benefit of the doubt. In no way have I "victimized" hollowhelm or acted in "bad faith".
@hollowhelm: I have followed Bartertown rules to the best of my ability in posting your personal information. In fact, when my first post was edited by the moderator (MagickalMemories) to remove your phone #, he left all the rest of the information (and I didn't repost your phone # in any of my further communications). As I state above, I have not received a refund from you, merely a conditional promise of a refund (which will not occur because I will not meet that condition). I was placed into this situation by your choice to sell counterfeit models.
Let's start by looking at hollowhelm's actions:
Snarkhunter: "This looks like: sorc on bull, 3 demonsmiths, 10 IG, 3 IG command, and a magma cannon. Is everything else new on sprue?"
hollowhelm: "Yeah those are the only ones that I assembled I think as I kept them on my shelf, everything else is in a box downstairs."
*The truth is that the Incarnate Elemental of Fire was also assembled. This is a ~$113 model who's value is dramatically different depending on whether it is new on sprue or assembled.
Snarkhunter: "Are there bases for everything?"
hollowhelm: "The cannons and stuff never came with bases but everything else has bases."
*The truth is that Drazhoath the Ashen and the Incarnate Elemental of Fire are both missing their bases, which would cost about $10 on ebay to replace.
hollowhelm: "I can have my girlfriend pack the stuff up as ship tmr morning if you can get payment in today."
hollowhelm: "I had my wife pack this."
*It isn't directly relevant to the trade, but there is definitely some inconsistency in what hollowhelm is saying here.
hollowhelm on Nov 6: "Payment received. Will ship tomorrow. Thanks!"
hollowhelm on Nov 8: "Got it sent"
*He promised to ship on Nov 7, but did not until Nov 8.
hollowhelm: "I will make sure that everything is securely packaged. Will put in one box."
hollowhelm: "The dread quake was coming in the mail as we negotiated and should be here shortly. I stated that in the post that I made when I was selling these. I will ship that when it arrives no problem."
hollowhelm: " I bought these as a lot from ebay a while back."
*He never stated anything about sending part of the shipment later, in fact, he said it would all be sent in one box. Also, if he bought everything a while back as a lot from ebay, then why was he waiting on the dreadquake?
hollowhelm: "The guy I bought from told me that it was just a miscast and that they're supposed to be like that."
*He initiated a trade for the models and never warned his trade partner about this conversation with his supplier? Are we supposed to believe that he wasn't trying to cheat his trade partner?
hollowhelm: "Refunded through PayPal."
*Not true. In fact he simply plead no contest or equivalent to my paypal claim. The money was not, and has not been, refunded to my account (see the email from PayPal in my previous post). A promise has been made by PayPal that the money will be refunded if I submit a tracking # and a signature upon delivery for sending the models back to hollowhelm, at my cost.
Summary: It is clear that hollowhelm acted in bad faith from the beginning. He omitted important information that the models were "miscast", he made false statements about the condition of the models, he promised bases for the models and failed to deliver, and after failing to deliver portions of the shipment - tried to claim that he had given forewarning that the remaining goods would be delivered later.
Now for my actions:
Snarkhunter: "Considering your rating of 0 (welcome to barter town, btw), could we do half the $ now and half upon delivery?"
hollowhelm: " I cannot do half half as I have alot of experience on Dakkadakka + this is alot of stuff."
Snarkhunter: "Payment has been sent by paypal."
*Although dealing with a new trader with a rating of Zero, I offered to pay half before shipment and half after. Bartertown "rules" would have the person with the lower rating (hollowhelm) ship first. When he refused, I agreed to pay him in full prior to shipment.
hollowhelm: "Payment received."
*I provided my side of the deal exactly as promised and within one hour of being provided with his PayPal information.
Snarkhunter: "I received the package today, and I'm not very happy. ... I'd like to know what you suggest in order to resolve these issues."
Snarkhunter: "Please let me know when the dreadquake arrives. Don't worry about the bases, as long as you are able to send me the dreadquake."
*When my initial inventory showed irregularities in the condition of the assembled models and the fact that a couple of big models were missing and an extra model included, I communicated politely and reasonably with my trade partner, offering him the chance to suggest a solution. When offered a solution, I was willing to work with him even though it was less than the deal we had originally agreed upon.
I then had to opportunity to make a closer inspection of the models, and it became clear that the models could be counterfeit. I chose to research this possibility before making any accusations, which led me to contact ForgeWorld for their opinion. I spent time taking photos, emailing them, researching my protections on PayPal which may be needed if these items are counterfeit, and also researching the rules on Bartertown as they may apply. Upon ForgeWorld's confirmation that the models appear to be recast, I spent time preparing a proper Bad Trade Report and posted it. Then I filed a claim on PayPal as the recepient of counterfiet items (a subcategory of SNAD). The fact that the models are counterfeit precludes a discussion with the seller and an attempt to work it out.
Since hollowhelm involved me in this situation, I have had to spend a considerable amount of my time to communicate with ForgeWorld, PayPal and to properly include all of the various communications into a legible BTR format.
I have continued to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, despite his numerous falsehoods, even providing him with information to help him not be fooled by recasts in the future.
I have even worked out a solution where everyone does okay: The seller gets to keep the money (since I will not be sending the models back to him), I get real ForgeWorld models, and ForgeWorld gets some recasts off the market and some information towards trying to stop their production.
Throughout this process, from my initial communication with hollowhelm, I have been an honest trader willing to give my trade partner more than a reasonable benefit of the doubt. In no way have I "victimized" hollowhelm or acted in "bad faith".
@hollowhelm: I have followed Bartertown rules to the best of my ability in posting your personal information. In fact, when my first post was edited by the moderator (MagickalMemories) to remove your phone #, he left all the rest of the information (and I didn't repost your phone # in any of my further communications). As I state above, I have not received a refund from you, merely a conditional promise of a refund (which will not occur because I will not meet that condition). I was placed into this situation by your choice to sell counterfeit models.